Damascus Steel 1911 pistols

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mehulkamdar

Post by mehulkamdar » Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:26 pm

Mack The Knife,

I am sure that the Indian co could do it if they wanted to. That said, I agree with you that caution is not a bad thing... :(

Sharief,

The LTW forum has some nice posts but one hardly sees any activity there for some reason. Considerng that the US is the world's largest buyer of custom guns and kives, you would think they would have more activity there - sad.

Asif,

Frankly, I don't spend a lot of money on knives - I might be a Philistine im this regard - a knife is a tool to me though I do like a good tool when I see one. :D I am sure, though, that there are people who would appreciate the finer points of these things and understand and appreciate them a lot better than I ever could.

Cheers,

Mehul

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Mack The Knife
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Post by Mack The Knife » Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:31 am

mehulkamdar wrote:I am sure that the Indian co could do it if they wanted to.
There is no doubt in my mind that we can do anything we want. Unfortunately, those manufacturers that are protected by import policies, guns and knives for instance, simply couldn't be bothered.

Let me give you a small example. Dr. S, a doctor of homeopathy, builds airguns of all types (spring-piston, single stroke pneumatics, compressed air, CO2, etc.) as a hobby and has designed two airguns for National Airguns - a CO2 powered target pistol and a single stroke pneumatic air-rifle. I have seen some of the airguns he has built for himself with basic DIY skills and then there is a large company like National Airguns (Indian Hume Pipe Co.) that makes an utter mess of his simple and practical designs for the Indian market.

He has designed a compressed air 10 metre air-rifle for the target shooting community and National have been pussy-footing around with the prototype for the last two years or atleast that is what I have been told. When they finally release it, the quality of workmanship will be shoddy as ever.

As usual we missed getting on to the knife manufacturing bandwagon and in just a few years China has made huge strides in this industry.

Asif, recently gifted me a Kershaw made in China. At first I was cynical about it but it seems to be holding up and I just cannot fault the quality.

Mack The Knife

mehulkamdar

Post by mehulkamdar » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:05 am

Mack The Knife,

You know about my friend in the Italian government agency - if your doctor friend is interested in going about this himself, I might be able to fix up a deal with Morini through my contacts. I don;t know about the licenses etc that would be required, but if he has a plan, we could try and work it out. :wink:

You know where he could reach me if he wants to do something. :D

Cheers,

Mehul

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Post by eljefe » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:07 am

LTW has 1584 users -Bless us all!
Axx
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Post by Mack The Knife » Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:58 pm

Mehul,

Morini is a Swiss company.

Being a doctor, I doubt he would like to get into management.

He is an authorised service engineer for Feinwerkbau but being a doctor, I doubt he would like to get into management.

If you like, I could give you his phone number and you could talk to him. E-mails are a no-no where he is concerned.

Mack The Knife

mehulkamdar

Post by mehulkamdar » Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:38 pm

Mack The Knife,

Living as I do in the USA, I cannot do anything other than make the neccessary introductions. If someone is interested in doing something about this, I have the clout to arrange for their project to be reviewed and for a funding application to be considered. Nothing more that I can do from over here.

As far as Morini are concerned, they were first established in Italy in 1973 and then the manufacture of their products moved to Switzerland in 1985 to avoid heavy Italian taxes. They are in Ticino, an Italian canton in Switzerland, and are still Italian owned.

Mehul

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Post by Mack The Knife » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:23 pm

Living as I do in the USA, I cannot do anything other than make the neccessary introductions. If someone is interested in doing something about this, I have the clout to arrange for their project to be reviewed and for a funding application to be considered. Nothing more that I can do from over here.
Fair enough, however, I have no wish to be involved in this.
As far as Morini are concerned, they were first established in Italy in 1973 and then the manufacture of their products moved to Switzerland in 1985 to avoid heavy Italian taxes. They are in Ticino, an Italian canton in Switzerland, and are still Italian owned.


They used to be in Ticino but moved to Bedano quite some time back. I am not sure about the ownership issues except that it is headed (if not as owner, than as management) by Francesco Repich (pretty sure the spelling is wrong) and that Ceasre Morini left Morini quite some time back. Was asked to leave if the rumours are right.

Come to think of it, I am not even sure if Francesco is still in charge.

Mack The Knife

mehulkamdar

Post by mehulkamdar » Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:32 am

Well, let's see - if no one here has the entrepreneurial spirit to take this up, maybe I should think about it as a retirement project when I return to India. :D I am sure that if this is done properly anbd marketed right, it could be a huge money spinner. Target shooting is a craze in India and low priced Indian amde air rifles and pistols could be a fantastic product to promote properly.

Mehul

PS The Italian government funding could be availed of for any product manufactured in association with an Italian company - the designer would just need to buy the equipment to make the pistols and rifles from Italy and that would be enough. :wink:

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Post by Vikram » Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:05 am

mehulkamdar wrote:Well, let's see - if no one here has the entrepreneurial spirit to take this up, maybe I should think about it as a retirement project when I return to India. :D I am sure that if this is done properly anbd marketed right, it could be a huge money spinner. Target shooting is a craze in India and low priced Indian amde air rifles and pistols could be a fantastic product to promote properly.

Mehul

PS The Italian government funding could be availed of for any product manufactured in association with an Italian company - the designer would just need to buy the equipment to make the pistols and rifles from Italy and that would be enough. :wink:
Once I return to India,I would sure like to take a keen look at the project. Lets see. Mehul, tell me honestly! Do you have a lot of parallel processors in your mind? :wink: How do you keep all this info in your mind?I am sure, guns are just a small fraction of your interests. :D

Best- Vikram
It ain’t over ’til it’s over! "Rocky,Rocky,Rocky....."

mehulkamdar

Post by mehulkamdar » Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:43 am

Vikram,

If you want to work on this, I have no problem at all introducing you to my people in Italy. My suggestion would be to talk to Mack The Knife's friend who has designed the airguns that he spoke about first.

Once you're ready to start working on this, just let me know.

Mehul

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Post by mundaire » Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:49 pm

Can anyone confirm if the claims on this site are factual or not?! It seems like a right wing propaganda site so not really sure whether or not to give any credence to what it says. Sample quote from the site -
The finest Damascus steel was made by a process known only to Indians. The original Damascus steel-the world's first high-carbon steel-was a product of India known as wootz. Wootz is the English for ukku in Kannada and Telugu, meaning steel. Indian steel was used for making swords and armour in Persia and Arabia in ancient times. Ktesias at the court of Persia (5th c BC) mentions two swords made of Indian steel which the Persian king presented him. The pre-Islamic Arab word for sword is 'muhannad' meaning from Hind.

Wootz was produced by carburising chips of wrought iron in a closed crucible process. "Wrought iron, wood and carbonaceous matter was placed in a crucible and heated in a current of hot air till the iron became red hot and plastic. It was then allowed to cool very slowly (about 24 hours) until it absorbed a fixed amount of carbon, generally 1.2 to 1.8 per cent," said eminent metallurgist Prof. T.R. Anantharaman, who taught at Banares Hindu University, Varanasi. "When forged into a blade, the carbides in the steel formed a visible pattern on the surface." To the sixth century Arab poet Aus b. Hajr the pattern appeared described 'as if it were the trail of small black ants that had trekked over the steel while it was still soft'.

The carbon-bearing material packed in the crucible was a clever way to lower the melting-point of iron (1535 degrees centigrade). The lower the melting-point the more carbon got absorbed and high-carbon steel was formed. In the early 1800s, Europeans tried their hand at reproducing wootz on an industrial scale. Michael Faraday, the great experimenter and son of a blacksmith, tried to duplicate the steel by alloying iron with a variety of metals but failed. Some scientists were successful in forging wootz but they still were not able to reproduce its characteristics, like the watery mark. "Scientists believe that some other micro-addition went into it," said Anantharaman. "That is why the separation of carbide takes place so beautifully and geometrically."
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Post by Vikram » Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:11 pm

Mehul,

Thanks much.But, I need to settle down a bit before I take that up.But, that is a very interesting project and whoever takes that up will be very proud to carry that out in India successfully.




Abhijeet,

Guess what! It seems to be true. :shock: :shock: :shock: Wow.Makes me proud to think of it. I was a bit sceptical about the source as you rightly mentioned.But, a simple net search gave this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel
Wootz steel
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Wootz, is a steel alloy having a pattern of bands or sheets of micro carbides within a tempered martensite or pearlite matrix. Developed in India around 300 AD, (although some say as early as 200 BC). the word wootz may have been a mistranscription of wook, an anglicised version of ukku, the word for steel in many south Indian languages.

Wootz can be made in crucibles, e.g., crucible steel by combining a mixture of wrought iron or iron ore and charcoal with glass, which is then sealed and heated in a furnace. The result is a mixture of impurities mixed with glass as slags, and "buttons" of steel. The buttons (with a typical carbon content of 1.5%) were separated from the slag and forged into ingots. The ingots could be further forged out into blades/tools or welded to other ingots to increase the mass of the steel for larger items.

Wootz steel was widely exported throughout the region, and became particularly famous in the Middle East, where it became known as Damascus steel. The critical characteristic of wootz steel is the abundant ultrahard metallic carbides in the steel matrix precipitating out in bands, making wootz steel display a characteristic banding on its surface. Wootz swords were renowned for their sharpness and toughness.

The techniques for its making died out around 1700 AD after the principal sources of special ores needed for its production were depleted. Those sources contained trace amounts of tungsten and/or vanadium which other sources did not. Oral tradition in India maintains that a small piece of either white or black hematite (or old wootz) had to be included in each melt, and that a minimum of these elements must be present in the steel for the proper segregation of the micro carbides to take place.

Wootz was rediscovered in the mid 19th century by the Russian metallurgist Pavel Petrovich Anosov, who refused to reveal the secret of its manufacture other than to write five one-sentence descriptions of different ways in which it could be made. Another method of wootz production, using modern technology, was developed around 1980 by Dr. Oleg Sherby and Dr. Jeff Wadsworth at Stanford University and Livermore National Laboratories. Master bladesmith Alfred Pendray and Dr. John Verhoeven re-discovered what may be the classic techniques in the early 1980's.

[edit]
References
J.D. Verhoeven, A.H. Pendray, and W.E. Dauksch. (1998). The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades. Journal of Metals. 50(9). pp.58-64. [1]

[edit]
External links
The key role of impurities in ancient damascus steel blades
Wootz steel: an advanced material of the ancient world
Indian heritage in metallurgy
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel"
Best-Vikram
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Post by eljefe » Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:49 pm

Told you guys! :wink:
We were right there up front.

WHY THE ART WAS LOST
The discovery that vanadium is extremely effective in producing Fe3C banding in high-carbon steels17 was aided by the accidental use of Sorel metal as a raw material for making the small ingots. Sorel metal is a high-purity Fe-C alloy, containing 3.9-4.7% C, marketed by Rio Tinto Iron and Titanium America, Chicago. The alloy is produced from a large ilmenite ore deposit at Lac Tio on the north shore of the St. Lawrence River. Analyses of several batches of the Sorel metal has found that it consistently contains a few hundred ppmw of vanadium impurity. Apparently, the impurity is contained in the ilmenite ore. This suggests the possibility that the low levels of vanadium found in the genuine wootz blades of Table III may have resulted from ore deposits in India where the wootz steels were produced.
One of the big mysteries of wootz Damascus steel has been why the art of making these blades was lost. The vanadium levels provide the basis for a theory. Based on our studies, it is clear that to produce the damascene patterns of a museum-quality wootz Damascus blade the smith would have to fulfill at least three requirements. First, the wootz ingot would have to have come from an ore deposit that provided significant levels of certain trace elements, notably, Cr, Mo, Nb, Mn, or V. This idea is consistent with the theory of some authors who believe the blades with good patterns were only produced from wootz ingots made in southern India, apparently around Hyderabad.
Second, the data of Table IV confirm previous knowledge that wootz Damascus blades with good patterns are characterized by a high phosphorus level. This means that the ingots of these blades would be severely hot short, which explains why Breant's9 19th century smiths in Paris could not forge wootz ingots. Therefore, as previously shown,successful forging would require the development of heat-treating techniques that decarburized the surface in order to produce a ductile surface rim adequate to contain the hot-short interior regions.
Third, a smith who developed a heat-treatment technique that allowed the hot-short ingots to be forged might still not have learned how to produce the surface patterns, because they do not appear until the surface decarb region is ground off the blades; this grinding process is not a simple matter.

The smiths that produced the high-quality blades would most likely have kept the process for making these blades a closely guarded secret to be passed on only to their apprentices. The smiths would be able to teach the apprentices the second and third points listed, but point one is something they would not have known. There is no difference in physical appearance between an ingot with the proper minor elements present and one without. Suppose that during several generations all of the ingots from India were coming from an ore body with the proper amount of minor elements present, and blades with good patterns were being produced. Then, after a few centuries, the ore source may have been exhausted or become inaccessible to the smithing community; therefore, the technique no longer worked. With time, the smiths who knew about the technique died out without passing it on to their apprentices (since it no longer worked), so even if a similar source was later found, the knowledge was no longer around to exploit it.
The possible validity of this theory could be examined if data were available on the level of carbide-forming elements in the various ore deposits in India used to produce wootz steel.

.D. Verhoeven, A.H. Pendray, and W.E. Dauksch. (1998). The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades. Journal of Metals. 50(9). pp.58-64. [1]
''It dont mean a thing, if it aint got that zing!''

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mehulkamdar

Post by mehulkamdar » Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:56 pm

There is considerable controversy over the hypothesews mentioned in the posts above. No doubt India's metalsmiths were among the most skilled in ancient times, there has been excellent metallurgy from Egypt, Japan, Sumer (which would be where Damascus gets it's name from) etc. If, indeed, India had the initial advantage, it was soon overtaken by several other civilizations and the final, finest blades were undoubtedly made by the Japanese. My friend M Anbalagan, a leading lawyer in Chennai has a beautiful katana which was gifted to him by a client. The blade's edge has the kind of waves that you could expect to see on Damascus but the portion beyond the edge is plain white steel, like any other knife. I don't know enough to understand the significance or reason behind this pattern but it does seem to stand out quite well.

This is OT but Waffenfabrik Hein have started making floorplates for Mauser rifles from Damascus as announced on the AR forums at http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve ... /162101925

Cheers,

Mehul

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Post by Grumpy » Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:02 am

You`ll have to forgive the brain fade ........ it`s taken me a quarter of an our to remember my user name and password so the thinking processes are obviously not up to scratch yet !
I have no problem with certain quality pistols being considered `Fine` guns - a top quality gun is fine whatever form it takes. I do think think that the damascus pattern on these 1911 pistols is unsympathetically large though - Damasteel make prettier and more appropriate patterns.
Asif is correct: Technically `damascus` barrels are `pattern welded`. It`s also true that no one should reject a shotgun just because it has `damascus` barrels - if in good order they will last for many more years. I have a selection of English damascus barrelled guns that are off to the USA shortly - deliberately chosen because the barrels are in excellent condition. Many damascus barrelled guns were re-proved for use with nitro powders, many were initially proved for nitro powders and I`ve had several damascus barrelled guns rechambered and reproved to nitro 2 3/4" specs.
The number of strips of iron/steel and the number of folds varied with the pattern desired. The blade/barrel produced required etching to display the pattern in its` full glory.
Damacus steel is often sandwiched with carbon steel ( or even stainless steel ) to produce a good cutting edge - the blade proper has damascus laminates welded to its` outer sides. Certain Swedish knifemakers in particular make knives using this process which might be regarded as the best of both worlds.
Caesare Guerrini ....... whose forename isn`t `Caesare` by the way ( although I can`t for the life of me remember what it is at the moment ) used to work for Battista ( B.R. ) Rizzini before establishing his own company and is Battista Rizzinis` nephew. It`s news to me that he ever worked for Morini. I bought my 20-Bore Magnus Jaspe from him earlier this year and speak to him periodically so I`ll try to remember to ask.

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