INSAS

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cottage cheese
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Re: INSAS

Post by cottage cheese » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:50 am

Hey Jonah,

Nice pics. Nostalgia time for me.

Guess its time I rekindle my contacts with my Policia friends and go for a pop.

The pics anywhere else, without due preamble, would appear to be MNF reborn :mrgreen:

Just find those Brass catchers so damn annoying.

The INSAS looks like a first generation one.

As you'd mentioned to me. The Bren is superb. Thats one thing our IOF couldn't botch up successfully since high quality of working surface and fit is of utmost importance to its functioning. The external finish however, is, as usual, to IOF's lofty standards!

Pity, you didn't have time to try the MAG58... thats another superb gun. Only problem is apart from in some SF units, all other deployment of the MAG is on a tripod in the MMG role... an awfully boring way to fire a gun!
Last edited by cottage cheese on Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by eljefe » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:26 am

Absolutely CC, dream gun, the bren.
Hey Jonah, hope you're sore parts are settled now? what about the targets? any pics?
Keep on doing it
Axx
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Re: INSAS

Post by Risala » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:32 am

Nice pics and thanks for sharing :)

What range were you firing the LMG at,even at 200 plus you get good groups in the single shot mode,

in the burst mode well the a little erratic but the Fig 11 is pretty well covered.

Sanjay

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Re: INSAS

Post by jonahpach » Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:02 pm

hope you're sore parts are settled now? what about the targets? any pics?
Sorry doc! and the rest.. something to do with nerve damage in the buttocks.. It's a real pain to even sit down..

About them targets..
Here's my first target.. (after they convinced me it was not an indian army fellow and that this was a terrorist)
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nobody told me to shoot the bug*3r in the stomach and i wanted to blow his head off!
Second target seems to be better..
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all targets were shot at 100 meters except when in full auto.. funny thing is in full auto, and in the case of the insas in 3 shot bursts, only the first shot hit the target..

Here's another 'top secret' (sic) stuff.. Indian made too!
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Guess what it is.. Naah! Forgot this place is crawling with geeks..
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No prizes for guessing what it is..

About the Bushnell box, the army has another new 'secret' equipments in their arsenal and its a Bushnell Imageview 15-45x50 2.1M Digital Camera Spotting scope
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Great stuff.. Bops getme one of these things!

The evening ended with some entertainment by the army jazz band which us 'Mad Mizo' guys quickly took over.. CCR any one??
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Or maybe a drink?? Rusty??
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By the way I found this great angling spot for the doc and Dev.. Carp, Mahseer..
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Speak softly and carry a big gun!

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Re: INSAS

Post by Mack The Knife » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:03 pm

CCR any one??
Sure. Just don't sing! :mrgreen:
Or maybe a drink?? Rusty??
Why not. Cheers! ;)

Where are the videos?

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Re: INSAS

Post by Pran » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:14 pm

>Guess what it is.

Is it some kind of first generation NV?
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Post by Vikram » Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:18 am

Sorry to know of your pain Jonah. Was just trying to tickle you.I myself had a very nasty back injury recently and I am yet to recover fully.Was on NSAIDs etc for more than a couple of months.Take care and go through the entire rehabilitation regime.

Best-
Vikram
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Post by Sakobav » Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:41 am

Great Jonah.

Cheers
NG

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Post by Mack The Knife » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:46 am

VIKRAM!!!

You are supposed to take the pee-pee, not gush over with sympathy. Here's an example..."Hi Jonah, sorry to hear about the pinched nerve. Hope it's nothing minor." :mrgreen:

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Post by dev » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:45 am

Great stuff Jonah, hopefully the fishing spot will be great.

Look after yourself cause you have lots of toys to make.



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A Civilians Review of the INSAS

Post by jonahpach » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:30 am

A Civilians Review of the INSAS
Jonah L Pachuau (Mad Mizo)

When I mentioned that I wanted to do a civilians review of the INSAS The first words that the good colonel spoke was addressed to his adjutant, a Captain in the Assam Rifles; and it went something like this “He’s going to say its’s a damned good rifle”. Now that was something to think about.. Well to tell you the truth I wasn’t surprised. I have seen and experienced first hand most of the civilian issue small arms manufactured by out infamous ‘Ordinance Factory Board’ and they are nothing short of a disaster! Workmanship is poor, finish is a farce and shooting them is, to be truthful downright uncomfortable. Having tried out a few brand new .315 bore rifles manufactured and supplied by the OFB to the Forest & Wildlife department of Mizoram a few years ago, I remember vividly that it was not unlike the feeling one gets when one triesout one of the illegal, locally fabricated ‘pipe guns’ so common amongst farmers in this hill state. The bolt being made of aluminium was so loose as to be able to rattle even when locked. A quick study of the .315 cartridge with its immensely elongated and bulbous copper encased bullet didn’t do much to bolster ones confidence in the gun either.

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Now when one thinks about the INSAS and its significance as being the mainstay of the frontline soldier of the Indian Army, which happens to be the third largest in the world, One must take a very very deep breath. It would not be inappropriate to mention here that the Government of India spent thousands of crores of rupees in its R&D (Armaments Research & Development Establishment, Pashan, Pune) lasting almost two decades. Not to mention the couple of years it spent weeding out its defects during army field trials. After its acceptance, If I remember correctly the OFB also imported custom built CAD/CAM manufacturing and tooling equipments costing another few 100 crores.

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The INSAS which is supposed to be the ‘backbone’ of our prestigious army has gained much media coverage and interest during recent years. I had the opportunity to inspect the earlier models of this rifle along with some pump action 12 bore guns in 1998 at one of the Exhibitions in Pragati Maidan. Although I didn’t have the opportunity to test fire the rifle, I was allowed by the OFB personell to thoroughly check it out (As thoroughly as possible within the confines of the stall without dismanteling it.) Even at that time I remember not being overtly impressed by it, It had a very clunky feeling about it and the cocking handle would get stuck. Having seen the likes of the AK’s and G-3’s I thought that the INSAS didn’t have that streamlined, balanced and ambidextrous feel to it. The pump action which was displayed fared even worse with the action getting jammed almost everytime it was worked. A quick look at the bolt showed inappropriately shallow grooves in the revolving bolt which most probably resulted in it slipping off its rails. The poor OFB armourer gave some lame excuse of it being brand new and never fired. Nevertheless almost 10 years later I am glad I was given the opportunity to testfire this now infamous INSAS rifle.

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I was actually rather surprised when the army captain who hosted us at the army firing range swore by the accuracy of the INSAS rifle and after letting me fire a few rounds demonstrated this by shooting at a 4x4 piece of wood which was stood on its side. Having done this with an AK-47 (7.62x41) at almost point blank range and having seen the piece of wood get knocked off with tremendous force I was amazed to see the piece of wood still standing! A closer inspection revealed the minuscule exit and entry points which I could have sworn was that of a .22 calibre rifle! Off course I knew better that a .22 calibre rifle could never have entered and exited that piece of hardwood 4x4 at 100 yards! Hmm… this was something to think about.. An OFB product that actually shoots straight and hard! Maybe all this talk about the INSAS being a melon was just bad press! The next few hours with the good captain showed me the working and inards of the INSAS and I could have sworn that they belonged to the AK-47 (I can fully field strip and reassemble an AK-47 in 2 minutes, not bad for a civvy huh..?) Maybe all those years of Pro-Soviet leaning left a hangover which must have rubbed off on the OFB.

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Technicalities and bad PR (much of which are available on the web) aside, the OFB INSAS is really a sweet shooter! The trigger is positive and not too stiff, the recoil is quite manageable even in three round bursts (targets showed the same results when compared by 5 civvys and 2 army personell, only the first round hits the target be it the AK, the INSAS (5.56) or the LMG and the Ishapore (7.62) whether it was in bursts or full auto.) One notable feature of the INSAS that I immediately found quite inappropriate was the fire selector lever which had to be rotated with the thumb a full 180 degrees to select between single shot and bursts mode. This lever, being positioned on the left handside just above the trigger supposedly enables the shooter to use his firing thumb which seems quite convenient. In actual usage the fire selector is rather quite twiddly and having to rotate it a complete 180 degrees to select between the only two available fire modes is not too user friendly. I noticed the soldiers themselves use their left hand to rotate it thus making its convenient positioning rather useless. On a positive note one convenient feature of the INSAS is that the charging handle is maintained on the lefthand side just as in the Ishapore but much more convenient. This is an important feature making the INSAS more userfriendly when compared to the Ishapore as it has a rubber lining making its use quite positive. Other than this the chunky feeling prevails even on the grip and one feels that one is gripping a block of wood rather than the grip of a ‘state of the art’ rifle manufactured under the highest standards and specifications of a modern army.



Coming to specifications, we often read that the INSAS was built and designed to meet the exacting specifications of the Army and that the 3 round burst mode was one of the most important ‘design criteria’. (Lessons learnt from Sri Lanka, Indian army jawans wasted all their ammo by resorting to continous and wasteful full auto fire in the field!) This in my opinion is exactly where the army top brass failed! Their primary specifications were made under the wrong assumptions! It might seem wasteful to the Comptroller Auditor General of India to ‘wastefully use’ 50,000 rounds of ammo to terminate 5 well entrenched and stocked enemy soldiers when 5 well placed shots could have done the job. But try telling that to the soldier who is facing the enemy! Purposely limiting the firepower of the frontline soldier with an intention of ‘cutting down costs’ is downright stupid! Ever since stoneage it is the inclination of man to throwback what his enemy throws at him. Be it a stone or an arrow or maybe even a spear. A soldier who feels that he is unable to ‘give back’ what the enemy is giving him automatically considers himself inadequate and the war is lost even before it has begun. No wonder the Indian Army has never successfully deployed the INSAS in actual battle.

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During the 5 hours or so with the Assam Rifles I was able to recognize some of the reasons behind the soldiers reservations with the INSAS, the plasticky furniture was prone to breakages even with a slight knock, It could crack even if it fell on a hard surface with its own weight when leant carelessly against a wall. The gas piston cover (meant to protect it against the elements would keep falling off during patrolling) As I rightly noticed, balance of the rifle was one major grievance of the soldiers as the heavy barrel would tend to drop/droop when held for a long period in battle ready position. This unnecessary need to ‘babying’ their primary weapon causes immense hardship and unnecessary distractions for the frontline soldier who is expected to be ready to face the enemy who could suddenly pop up from anywhere at anytime. With an AK and an INSAS on either hands I asked the seasoned soldier beside me (he was on a short vacation from a forward post) Which would you take to Kargil?? Without any hesitation the poor soldier pointed at the AK-47

A cursory glance through the specifications laid down by the Indian Army for its frontline infantry weapon, one cannot but notice the similarities vis-à-vis the US Army M-16 (Its later day derivative) Well it has taken the US Army a good 40 years to develop the M-16 to what it is now. During desert storm they discovered some of its limitations and improved on it, After Afghanistan and Iraq they now want a bigger caliber! The US Army has been smart if not lucky to not be too dependent on its frontline infantry weapon by its judicious use of air power. Nevertheless, they have different derivatives of the M-16 with different specification for different battle conditions. Maybe the Indian army is asking too much from one gun or maybe they just want to keep the OFB busy with their R&D while they shop for what they want.

If the Indian Army wants a remake of the M-16 looks like they have it. But can we afford it?
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Post by Sakobav » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:32 am

Jonah

Nice review, Nepal army was issued with black colored INSAS and feedback wasnt too positive.

Best

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Post by cottage cheese » Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:40 am

ngrewal";p="30581 wrote:Jonah

Nice review, Nepal army was issued with black colored INSAS and feedback wasnt too positive.

Best
Quality issues in and improper usage in the hands of poorly led and trained troops make a terrific combination. :)

This happened in Nepal. That the INSAS is a poorly made rifle with inferior materials is a given. The Nepal feedback had to do with the losses their army suffered as a result of trying to use the INSAS rifle as if it were an LMG during several of those massed Maoist raids. The rifle obviously failed.

Nice review Jonah.

There seems to be two generations of the INSAS with minute, subtle differences. One, I think its a latter generation, has done away with the disassembly stud lock-out (That oblong button on the left side that you press before you push in th AK type receiver cover lock)... I suppose they realized this needless piece of clutter was sinking in crores in manufacturing costs...when the AK has been happily doing well without it for more than half a century! Furniture colors also differ ranging from an absurd bright orange to the most common (and equally horrid)brick red to a yellowish olive drab. Black is for export only.

As Jonah rightly put it, the INSAS balances poorly. Needless to say the, rifle is overweight for a 5.56. Rather than the design, I'd say it has more to do with a bad choice of materials. It feels like dead weight in your hands and doesn't 'point' well and in any case, the CG is apparently way up forward.

I first noticed this material issue with the 7.62mm SLR. While the older ones(Wood furniture wallahs) were definitely more 'streamlined' better finished and less bulky, presumably due to good steel type, the newer ones (Synthetic furniture) are terribly bulky, rough and needless to say, a bit heavier - Inferior and cheaper steel used to save manufacturing costs, I assume. I guess the use of less than ideal steel requires more mass and bulk to compensate for the lower structural strength.

The transparent magazine made of a goop called 'Ebonite' doesn't seem to be as robust as its contemporaries(Particularly the SIG550series and the Steyr AUG). A jawan(Police) being issued one for the first time will be immediately told that he will be docked Rs.700(last time I checked) for any damage to the magazine. This hints to magazine quality problems which could be fairly common. In any case, the material has been found to brittle up in very cold environment.

The choice of semi and 3round burst only proves the dominance of the babu in policy matters that are best left to the people who will actually use the hardware.

The trigger mechanism, a sorry piracy from the FNC, could have had all three modes; semi, burst and full auto (the FNC has all three)...but alas the babus tyranny reached this far as well.

penpusher

Re: A Civilians Review of the INSAS

Post by penpusher » Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:09 am

Nice review Jonah and good input CC.Re. t

he three round burst,sometimes it fires more than three.The carrying handle should be dispensed with.Why not have the cocking lever right on the breech block a la AK that the INSAS relies on for it's internal components ,rather than copy this from the G3?The plastics used,as noted,are of poor quality.As per the CAG,there are something like 12 problems with the INSAS.Almost as many if not more than the number of major components.This despite the 'improvements' made by the IOFB.

Re. the IOF pump action,it is sold for the rather regal amount of 40,000/-.This when a pump action is probably the cheapest to make after a single barrel shotty.Some of these from the first lot had Jap made barrels.Some were ok.

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Post by HSharief » Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:16 pm

My question is "Why?". Why did we need to spend all that money to re-invent the rifle, when we could've bought any production rifle that has already been proven in many conflict. Like the AK, AR, FN-FAL or MPx.

Is it because we wanted to be self reliant ? But at what expense, not just money but the lives of our brothers at the frontlines.

Nice review Jonah. But I'm still not happy :(....

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