My african safari

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Safarigent
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Re: My african safari

Post by Safarigent » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:34 pm

The original offensive term has been edited and a warning issued to the offender - moderator That is very offensive to me. And extremely unfortunate on your part.
It is in human nature to be greedy, not just in indian dna.
Why the americans and the europeans and the pakistanis and the nepalese are able to manage their herds of game animals is because they make everyone benefit by way of participation. Animal populations will decline when poachers all year round trap and kill animals, male, female and young, for eating/demand for meat hence earning money... If the same man is employed year long in a setting where a whole new industry opens up vis a vis game preserves, demands for jobs like guards, cooks, trackers, guides, gun bearers, drivers, beaters etc will come and the money which the hunters pay for their hunting permits, conservation fees, trophy fees etc will feed families.
India was once, along with africa, the mecca of hunting. What happened that populations fell off so drastically? We suddenly became greedy after independence? Or after the laws were enacted? I am sure you are not such a simpleton as to not know the real reasons as enunciated above. Auction the permits, or not, sell them so that you have enough money inflows while keeping the target population stable. Cull, if population increases. Cease hunting if population goes below a sustainable number. The only way the world over, to over come human greed is to have a carrot and a stick. Unfortunately we have no carrot and the stick is feeble.
As far as your assertion goes about the handsomest dude getting shot, you couldnt be further from the truth.
In the majority of cases, the older animal is hunted. He has had time to contribute to the genepool and is at the end of the rope. Economically too lets take an example, a 12 pointer deer will become a 16 pointer in a couple of years. Hence getting in more money to the operator. So he will be untouched till such time as he has passed on his genes and has matured and has reached an economically feasible stage to he hunted.
And guess whom the operator is employing and where all this money is going?
Also, your misguided notion about very few pocketing the money goes, it is the government of the day who after their surveys sell a certain number of permits/tags to the game reserve owners. When you go to hunt an animal, you are offsetting that cost. Guess where that money is ploughed back into?
I find your statements childish and specious to say the least and have been refraining to comment here but you leave me no choice. Reading your unscientific, baseless rants and even more idiotic replies when people have taken the time to reply with logic and proof, you come across as someone who is debating for the hell of it and not to learn/understa d.Use your camera. Those photos are some of the best tools to sensitise the coming generations about out wild resources and are also a bulwark against the seasonal nature of hunting. While a hunter will go to an area in season, a photographer will go out of season too, when the rains are scanty and animal populations congregate around water bodies, offering great shots and steady employment to the same locals who'd be poaching all year long.
As far as dr. Prashant goes, i hope he doesnt have the misfortune of carrying a camera into a hunt where he should have carried a rifle. Not yet atleast.
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fantumfan2003
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Re: My african safari

Post by fantumfan2003 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:08 pm

Safarigent

I did not know that you are Tibetan and if you DONT go to where you come from and don a tiger skin then, yes, I owe you an apology.

But I do stand by what I say.

Tigers have been hunted down to less than 1500 in this land starting from various invaders/colonialists and then the locals in power at various stages of this country's chequered history. Everyone with the wherewithal engaged in hunting tigers. I am quite certain that you know that the ongoing poaching of tigers is because of demand for tiger parts in medicines by quacks in China and Tibetans in Tibet (I am tempted to use the word again but will not) who use tiger skins as a mark of power/status.

Each and everyone of these individuals carry the shameful responsibility of driving the tiger towards extinction. Even the almighty has not given anyone the right to put a price on another living beings head and play truant with life itself, including killing. There is no excuse or justification for systematic killing and calling it a sport. It was, will and always be wrong. So, please, keep the hunting as an employment generating industry project report to yourself. It will not work in this country.

The Indian tiger will be extinct in the wild. Because the powers that be do not have the willingness to reverse it. Why, you said it yourself. GREED.

Your fairy tale and irate rant notwithstanding.

A couple of more things.

1) I am not engaged in a debate here.
2) The internet is a platform where people mistake the other person to be such and such by reading a couple of paras he wrote. They think that they know the other person better than anyone else. Do not make haste in judging or else you are those one of many on the www. I will not be provoked into an irate rant as you have just because you have called me names. I know better.

M.




Safarigent wrote:The original offensive term has been edited and a warning issued to the offender - moderator That is very offensive to me. And extremely unfortunate on your part.
It is in human nature to be greedy, not just in indian dna.
Why the americans and the europeans and the pakistanis and the nepalese are able to manage their herds of game animals is because they make everyone benefit by way of participation. Animal populations will decline when poachers all year round trap and kill animals, male, female and young, for eating/demand for meat hence earning money... If the same man is employed year long in a setting where a whole new industry opens up vis a vis game preserves, demands for jobs like guards, cooks, trackers, guides, gun bearers, drivers, beaters etc will come and the money which the hunters pay for their hunting permits, conservation fees, trophy fees etc will feed families.
India was once, along with africa, the mecca of hunting. What happened that populations fell off so drastically? We suddenly became greedy after independence? Or after the laws were enacted? I am sure you are not such a simpleton as to not know the real reasons as enunciated above. Auction the permits, or not, sell them so that you have enough money inflows while keeping the target population stable. Cull, if population increases. Cease hunting if population goes below a sustainable number. The only way the world over, to over come human greed is to have a carrot and a stick. Unfortunately we have no carrot and the stick is feeble.
As far as your assertion goes about the handsomest dude getting shot, you couldnt be further from the truth.
In the majority of cases, the older animal is hunted. He has had time to contribute to the genepool and is at the end of the rope. Economically too lets take an example, a 12 pointer deer will become a 16 pointer in a couple of years. Hence getting in more money to the operator. So he will be untouched till such time as he has passed on his genes and has matured and has reached an economically feasible stage to he hunted.
And guess whom the operator is employing and where all this money is going?
Also, your misguided notion about very few pocketing the money goes, it is the government of the day who after their surveys sell a certain number of permits/tags to the game reserve owners. When you go to hunt an animal, you are offsetting that cost. Guess where that money is ploughed back into?
I find your statements childish and specious to say the least and have been refraining to comment here but you leave me no choice. Reading your unscientific, baseless rants and even more idiotic replies when people have taken the time to reply with logic and proof, you come across as someone who is debating for the hell of it and not to learn/understa d.Use your camera. Those photos are some of the best tools to sensitise the coming generations about out wild resources and are also a bulwark against the seasonal nature of hunting. While a hunter will go to an area in season, a photographer will go out of season too, when the rains are scanty and animal populations congregate around water bodies, offering great shots and steady employment to the same locals who'd be poaching all year long.
As far as dr. Prashant goes, i hope he doesnt have the misfortune of carrying a camera into a hunt where he should have carried a rifle. Not yet atleast.
Last edited by fantumfan2003 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As an example of overcoming adversity, Karoly Takacs has few peers. He was part of Hungary’s world champion pistol-shooting team in 1938, when an army grenade exploded, crippling his right hand. Ten years later, having taught himself to shoot with his left, he won two gold medals in the rapid-fire class.

Darr ke aage jeet hai

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Safarigent
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Re: My african safari

Post by Safarigent » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:24 pm

Dude, go get a life. Neither doni know you nor do i wish to. You are spewing gibberish on a public forum and that needs to be corrected.
Firstly, one doesnt have to belong from a particular community to take umbrage at your brazen racism.
Again, ever wondered why our animal population is declining? In asia, India, and in africa, kenya banned hunting. A few years after that, both countries reported widespread loss of animal herds. Not their immediate neighbours. And that my friend is not a fairytale.
Secondly, yes the demand for tiger parts has pushed their numbers drastically down. So you agree yourself that its not hunting but those poachers who are responsible for it.
I knew you'd see the light of the day! :D
To Excellence through Diligence.

fantumfan2003
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Re: My african safari

Post by fantumfan2003 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:32 pm

Oh so now you are into giving advice on getting life ?
I already got one and a much more meaningful one than anyone can have.
Does respecting life and not taking life not figure in your life ?
I'll wager most certainly not.

As for Africa and India ? I am sure you have done nothing there except contribute to the depletion of wildlife and calling it a sport.

M.
Safarigent wrote:Dude, go get a life. Neither doni know you nor do i wish to. You are spewing gibberish on a public forum and that needs to be corrected.
Firstly, one doesnt have to belong from a particular community to take umbrage at your brazen racism.
Again, ever wondered why our animal population is declining? In asia and in africa, kenya banned hunting. A few years after that, both countries reported widespread loss of animal herds. Not their immediate neighbours. And that my friend is not a fairytale.
Secondly, yes the demand for tiger parts has pushed their numbers drastically down. So you agree yourself that its not hunting but those poachers who are responsible for it.
I knew you'd see the light of the day! :D
Last edited by fantumfan2003 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As an example of overcoming adversity, Karoly Takacs has few peers. He was part of Hungary’s world champion pistol-shooting team in 1938, when an army grenade exploded, crippling his right hand. Ten years later, having taught himself to shoot with his left, he won two gold medals in the rapid-fire class.

Darr ke aage jeet hai

prashantsingh
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Re: My african safari

Post by prashantsingh » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:33 pm

We are talking facts.
The last TROPHY Markhor hunt in Hindu Kush Pakistan (that I read of) went for Rs 25 lacs.
That's a lot of money.
When the locals of the area realise that the wildlife in their area has so much value.
They will not poach, but instead conserve it to make money.
At the expense of few. You land up saving more, and also saving the habitat.
And that SIR is only the trophy fee.
There is additional $ 250 per day excluding the Taxidermy , packaging and transportation for the "Trophy" to whichever part of the world.

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Re: My african safari

Post by fantumfan2003 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:42 pm

Prashant,

Who gives anyone the right to decide who lives and who does not ?

Why is it so much difficult to grasp that taking a life for sport is wrong.

And please do not give economic justifications for trophy hunting. I am sure you are not so naive as to understand how much money goes into whose pockets. In all the countries that are mentioned.

As I said before, this grand scheme of trophy hunting will not work here because of a total lack of honest and transparent system.

As for Africa.
You went for a hunt there because it is banned here.
You did not go there for the betterment of that African country.
South Africa right ?
You went there because you like hunting animals.
Who are you trying to fool that your act contributed to atleast feeding one hungry child in Africa ?

You really think people don't see the true purpose ? Come on man.....

M.
prashantsingh wrote:We are talking facts.
The last TROPHY Markhor hunt in Hindu Kush Pakistan (that I read of) went for Rs 25 lacs.
That's a lot of money.
When the locals of the area realise that the wildlife in their area has so much value.
They will not poach, but instead conserve it to make money.
At the expense of few. You land up saving more, and also saving the habitat.
Last edited by fantumfan2003 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As an example of overcoming adversity, Karoly Takacs has few peers. He was part of Hungary’s world champion pistol-shooting team in 1938, when an army grenade exploded, crippling his right hand. Ten years later, having taught himself to shoot with his left, he won two gold medals in the rapid-fire class.

Darr ke aage jeet hai

prashantsingh
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Re: My african safari

Post by prashantsingh » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:49 pm

fantumfan2003 wrote:Prashant,

Who gives anyone the right to decide who lives and who does not ?

Why is it so much difficult to grasp that taking a life for sport is wrong.

And please do not give economic justifications for trophy hunting. I am sure you are not so naive as to understand how much money goes into whose pockets. In all the countries that are mentioned.

As I said before, this grand scheme of trophy hunting will not work here because of a total lack of honest and transparent
Dear M (Sorry I got your spelling wrong earlier)

You can either DREAM of saving all your wildlife and habitat and sooner or later loose them all to Habitat Loss and Poacher.
or Save the habitat by pumping in the much needed funds from TROPHY Hunting.

As for your question on "Who gives anyone the right to decide who lives and who does not?"
That way every one on earth should turn vegetarian . (I am sure you must be one).

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Re: My african safari

Post by fantumfan2003 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:55 pm

Prashant

You are mistaken. Trophy hunting is not the answer. As an example, it will not bring up a sizeable increase in the population of tigers.

Indians lack the discipline and honesty in every walk of life.

If you open up hunting here....all will be lost to corrupt and undisciplined people.

There is no sincere effort even to curb poachers. Tell me how could Sariska have happened in the first place ?

M.
As an example of overcoming adversity, Karoly Takacs has few peers. He was part of Hungary’s world champion pistol-shooting team in 1938, when an army grenade exploded, crippling his right hand. Ten years later, having taught himself to shoot with his left, he won two gold medals in the rapid-fire class.

Darr ke aage jeet hai

prashantsingh
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Re: My african safari

Post by prashantsingh » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:12 pm

No one is talking about Tiger hunting here.

I live in a town where all the Forest Officers of the country come for their training.

There are all types of people , everywhere. Even today I have friends in the Forest Services who have been men of the finest calibre. I have named one of them in my post "Maneater of Devprayag/Chandmari". It is an honour to know such people. People who have dedicated their lives to conservation. If you ever get time , go through that post.
And it is these Dedicated Honest and Upright Officers in our services who have helped save our wildlife till date.

This sunday I am going to Corbett with another such officer. A man who as Director of Corbett relocated 3 villages outside the park. A herculian task in todays date and age.He later went on to become the Chief Wildlife Warden of the state and has now retired. Going on trips with such people is always a learning experience.

We are talking about a practical way of saving the habitat.Take it or not. But it is TIME TESTED.
WHen it can work in Nepal and Pakistan. It can surely work in India. Provided an honest effort is made.

As for Sariska (and Panna). Do not confuse the POACHER with a Hunter.
Last edited by prashantsingh on Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My african safari

Post by fantumfan2003 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:30 pm

Try and get out of outdated and firangi mindsets.

Accept that this is India and if you dont know how this country works, ask a friend and while you are at it, ask someone intelligent if its okay to take a life for fun.

Hunting for sport is wrong. Period.

M.
Safarigent wrote:Dude, go get a life. Neither doni know you nor do i wish to. You are spewing gibberish on a public forum and that needs to be corrected.
Firstly, one doesnt have to belong from a particular community to take umbrage at your brazen racism.
Again, ever wondered why our animal population is declining? In asia, India, and in africa, kenya banned hunting. A few years after that, both countries reported widespread loss of animal herds. Not their immediate neighbours. And that my friend is not a fairytale.
Secondly, yes the demand for tiger parts has pushed their numbers drastically down. So you agree yourself that its not hunting but those poachers who are responsible for it.
I knew you'd see the light of the day! :D
Last edited by fantumfan2003 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As an example of overcoming adversity, Karoly Takacs has few peers. He was part of Hungary’s world champion pistol-shooting team in 1938, when an army grenade exploded, crippling his right hand. Ten years later, having taught himself to shoot with his left, he won two gold medals in the rapid-fire class.

Darr ke aage jeet hai

fantumfan2003
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Re: My african safari

Post by fantumfan2003 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:40 pm

In this country having a corrupt and inept boss is ones great misfortune.

There is rampant corruption in FD as well and not many of the straight types cross swords with their bosses and political masters.

Had it not been so, there would be no encroachments in and on the periphery of Borivli National Park and Aarey here. Surely it must be the same in many other places. What about illegal logging, firewood theft ? Does all this happen without the FDs knowledge and blessings ?

That is the reason why good plans will eat dust here.

As for Sariska and Panna how could poachers have it their way ? Was FD asleep ? As is always the case the FD must have been in collusion.

Given the history of your families forest department service, you being intrested in shikar and its stories is natural.

But what is also natural and right is that it is wrong to kill for fun.

M.
prashantsingh wrote:No one is talking about Tiger hunting here.
I live in a town where all the Forest Officers of the country come for their training. My great grand uncle was from the First Batch of the Indian Forest Services and went to England (Oxford) to do his Diploma in Forestry. We have had a number of Forest Officers from the family. Knowing them I can assure you that they have been the most straightforward and upright officers in there times.
There are all types of people , everywhere. Even today I have friends in the Forest Services who have been men of the finest calibre. I have named one of them in my post "Maneater of Devprayag/Chandmari". It is an honour to know such people. People who have dedicated their lives to conservation. If you ever get time , go through that post.
And it is these Dedicated Honest and Upright Officers in our services who have helped save our wildlife till date.
This sunday I am going to Corbett with another such officer. A man who as Director of Corbett relocated 3 villages outside the park. A herculian task in todays date and age.He later went on to become the Chief Wildlife Warden of the state and has now retired. Going on trips with such people is always a learning experience.

We are talking about a practical way of saving the habitat.Take it or not. But it is TIME TESTED.

As for Sariska (and Panna). Do not confuse the POACHER with a Hunter.
As an example of overcoming adversity, Karoly Takacs has few peers. He was part of Hungary’s world champion pistol-shooting team in 1938, when an army grenade exploded, crippling his right hand. Ten years later, having taught himself to shoot with his left, he won two gold medals in the rapid-fire class.

Darr ke aage jeet hai

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Vikram
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Re: My african safari

Post by Vikram » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:43 am

Gentlemen,

At this point I would like to remind everyone that have a go with all you got at the points raised by fellow members. Not at each other. The latter is not only against the forum rules, it plain vitiates the atmosphere. I do not want to play the eraser here. Please do me a favour and remove the personal references.I hope that is not too much to ask.

Please stick to the topic.Thank you!


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Vikram
It ain’t over ’til it’s over! "Rocky,Rocky,Rocky....."

fantumfan2003
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Re: My african safari

Post by fantumfan2003 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:04 am

Will do Vikram.

M.
Vikram wrote:Gentlemen,

At this point I would like to remind everyone that have a go with all you got at the points raised by fellow members. Not at each other. The latter is not only against the forum rules, it plain vitiates the atmosphere. I do not want to play the eraser here. Please do me a favour and remove the personal references.I hope that is not too much to ask.

Please stick to the topic.Thank you!


Best-
Vikram
4. NO racial/ religious/ castist/ regional slurs NOR any post which denigrates any community will be allowed - basically NO BIGOTRY will be tolerated here. Members making such posts will be immediately and permanently banned.


Please take some time to consider the error of your ways. After the moderator edited this thread to remove your offending language, you quoted your offensive language again. You can see what you deserve from the rules above. Do not make this mistake again. You have been warned. -- moderator
As an example of overcoming adversity, Karoly Takacs has few peers. He was part of Hungary’s world champion pistol-shooting team in 1938, when an army grenade exploded, crippling his right hand. Ten years later, having taught himself to shoot with his left, he won two gold medals in the rapid-fire class.

Darr ke aage jeet hai

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Hammerhead
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Re: My african safari

Post by Hammerhead » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:21 am

fantumfan2003 wrote:
As for Africa and India ? I am sure you have done nothing there except contribute to the depletion of wildlife and calling it a sport.

M.
And we gladly derail the thread.


Mr. Fantumfan you mixing lots of misinformation and emotions. I guess that you left any intellectual part out of the debate.

This is one big problem, you are not paying intentions to......
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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Safarigent
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Re: My african safari

Post by Safarigent » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:36 pm

Atlast! Thank you hammerhead
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