Wolves Hunted This Season

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Rajat
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Re: Wolves Hunted This Season

Post by Rajat » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:55 pm

xl_target wrote: The biggest problem as you bring up is that illegal hunting and poaching will flourish. Why is that?
To prevent poaching, you have to have conservation officers on the ground, adequately equipped to tackle and shut down poachers. This costs money, a lot of money - to pay for salaries and equipment. Where does this come from?

In countries that have successful conservation programs, this money comes from sportsmen who buy licences and pay taxes on certain sporting goods; usually arms and ammo. If you delegitimize activities like hunting, make legal arms and ammo difficult to procure; you have just removed a major revenue stream that could be applied to conservation. Most hunters are more than willing to pay these taxes. Most tree huggers aren't. The less money available for conservation, the more poachers will have unfettered access to take wildlife and the worse the situation becomes for your flora and fauna. There aren't enough conservation officers to stop people from cutting down trees in National Forests or Game Sanctuaries.

The above is not wishful thinking. It is fact and has been shown to occur all over the globe.

Another thing to think about: Regardless of laws preventing access, poachers or other criminals never seem to lack access to arms and ammo, do they?

Let me explain what Biren wanted to put forward. At least what I think he means.

It is not about generating money etc. Even if they have the funds here how will these be utilized.

Corruption and Manipulation. The burning issues.

This is what he means, I think, by "Instead copying west.. Gov should work out after taking into account ground realities in this sub continent".

It is the mentality and this is how things work here. This is the problem and it cannot be resolved by paying better salaries or giving more benefits to the officials etc. until and unless someone really clean is watching over it and with arbitrary powers. Which might not be possible.

Disclaimer: My reply above does not in any way imply that I am in any way recommending hunting for conservation in India even if they find a Mr.Clean game warden here. :D If India becomes clean and corruption free, if everyone begins doing the work assigned to them (nothing extra and over and above it, just their work) dutifully and responsibly. Then raising funds and managing things should not be a problem.

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Biren
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Re: Wolves Hunted This Season

Post by Biren » Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:18 pm

Well i feel that solution has to be specific to specific problem.... no cut past job... Conservation has to go hand in hand with pressing ground relaities.... India is one of most populeous country... too much demand on exisitng natural resources.... Allow hunting & you will find one license & whole forest cleaned... We Indians are cabable of lots with scant regards to law of country... After all most of us believe... who has Gandhi in Pocket has ..... All said fact is, it will take time when we can be trusted. Harsh words but isnt this a fact. Thanks rajat for coming close

Cheers
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Re: Wolves Hunted This Season

Post by hks2056 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:44 pm

All killers including humans have their own justification.All of us try to legitimize our actions and thereby attempt for their acceptance. It is considered fairly legitimate to kill maruading boars destroying crops. By streching the logic to extreme one day we will come up with justification to kill wild life in wilderness. Humans are the greatest and most demonical killers on this earth ever since the mankind took root and unquestioned possession of earth. Thirty years ago I also hunted game with immense sense of achievement without any any compunction.After mellowing with age I realise my folly in mindless killing of game.In all of us there lurks somewhere an untamed wild wolf. The sooner we control and overpower it the better it will be for the wildlife and the mankind will benefit. We stand to gain by preserving it rather than killing it. Leave wilderness to wild animals and nature which has inbuilt best check and balance mechanism.

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Re: Wolves Hunted This Season

Post by Hammerhead » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:55 am

Disclaimer: My reply does not in any way imply that I am in any way recommending hunting for conservation in India even if they find a Mr.Clean game warden here. :D If India becomes clean and corruption free, if everyone begins doing the work assigned to them (nothing extra and over and above it, just their work) dutifully and responsibly. Then raising funds and managing things should not be a problem ...

managing things should not be a problem .... then walk the mile , who is stopping you people ... ?

Already received a warning but above is a good starting point . :deadhorse:

If hunting is banned in India then how the game never recovered and how it's disappearing , when no one is killing animals ... ?

The reason for our fight is that the Government is not your babysitter and don't tell me that Gov't has solutions for every problem mankind has .

We hunters are the best conservationists and we needs the game animals healthy and flourish before we "the trigger happy punks" go on shooting any moving thing we got our hands on . We spend years and years roaming the places where most people don't dare go in sunny days , we all know what we are after and as every one else there are bad along with good . You can buy Indian rino to indian cobra to leopard to elephant ivory , in the places where you can hardy imagine , who took it , who let it happen . You my friend , you are solely responsible for your own demise . When your natural resources were being robbed , where were you ? It's your country , then why you let the police go corrupt ,why you let the politician walk away with millions , why you let the game wardens sell rino hornes , why you let snake charmers sell the cobra to foreigners , you are so confused that you don't even know what's right and wrong . You unnamed unknown person reading this post is solely responsible for all this .

South Africa , Nepal , Afghanistan , Sri Lanka and many more other counties are not less corrupt and are not less populated but they manage their resources even in the worst of the wars , the game survived , you my friend turn your back and let it all happen under your nose .How many of you stood your grounds and in courts and bang their chests that you saw this and this guy commit crime . India has one gold medal in the history of the country , how many have you wrote letter to you politicians, how many have gone the courts to open up sport shooting for every day joe , NONE .

It's a country belongs to all of you , every single one of you , you build it or burn it , hang together or will surely be hanged separately - Haji
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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Re: Wolves Hunted This Season

Post by Rajat » Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:00 am

Just answering because my words were quoted here.
Hammerhead wrote:
Disclaimer: My reply does not in any way imply that I am in any way recommending hunting for conservation in India even if they find a Mr.Clean game warden here. :D If India becomes clean and corruption free, if everyone begins doing the work assigned to them (nothing extra and over and above it, just their work) dutifully and responsibly. Then raising funds and managing things should not be a problem ...

should not be a problem .... then walk the mile , who is stopping you people ... ?

you my friend turn your back and let it all happen under your nose .
Not often. No, I do not whenever it is possible. At times on personal grounds at times on general issues but yes did not write letters to politicians.

There are others too but we need more and need to be together.

How many of you stood your grounds NONE .
Hmmm, did I read Toronto? :roll:
It's a country belongs to all of you , every single one of you , you build it or burn it , hang together or will surely be hanged separately - Haji
Agreed but no, no hanging if you join them. Not saying one should but just showing the other side.

The country belongs to all of "us" every singe one of "us". Pretty easy for "you" to show us the way I must say.
You unnamed unknown person reading this post is solely responsible for all this .
You really do not get it, do you? It is not the person,named or unnamed, who is reading this here who will make the difference. The ones who matter are the ones NOT reading this, they do not have access to this, they cannot read, it does not make sense to them, they will not comment on this, it is a waste of time for them and beyond their comprehension, they will only fight for an issue if they see a leadership of their own caste or religion but will never understand the issue, feed and booze them and they will fight, the list is endless.

Do you get it now?

Change there will be. When? I do not know. Need more like us to team up.

Sorry if I hurt any feelings. Will not comment further on this topic now.

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Re: Wolves Hunted This Season

Post by shooter » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:27 pm

thanks for the amazing link.
I love tovar cerruli.
now thats what i call honesty
You want more gun control? Use both hands!

God made man and God made woman, but Samuel Colt made them equal.

One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted. by Jose Gasset.

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Re: Wolves Hunted This Season

Post by xl_target » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:14 pm

You really do not get it, do you? It is not the person,named or unnamed, who is reading this here who will make the difference. The ones who matter are the ones NOT reading this, they do not have access to this, they cannot read, it does not make sense to them, they will not comment on this, it is a waste of time for them and beyond their comprehension, they will only fight for an issue if they see a leadership of their own caste or religion but will never understand the issue, feed and booze them and they will fight, the list is endless.

Do you get it now?
Rajat,
Frankly, I must disagree with you.
Back when India was ruled by the Raj, a far larger number of people couldn't read and didn't care about the same issue. However, they did clearly understand what would happen to them if they were caught poaching or "stealing Government wood". Did it happen? Yes, but not to the extent that it happens today.

The reason for that is they know the chances of them getting caught is slim. There just is not enough enforcement of the laws (for whatever reason). However, if they had more dedicated, better equipped forest rangers manning these areas, the chances of getting caught would be higher but this type of enforcement costs money and apparently no one cares enough to make it available. I submit, that poachers today know the penalties but their chances of getting caught are slim to non-existent so they happily break the law whenever they want to.

On the other hand, a poacher here, in my state in the US, is almost guaranteed to be caught. Either when he tries to get the meat processed or tries to dispose of the skin or the meat. Therefore poaching here is almost non-existent. It just doesn't pay to poach.

You just have to make it too costly (either monetarily, physically or otherwise) for a human being to desist from undesirable activities. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.
“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

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Re: Wolves Hunted This Season

Post by shooter » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:26 pm

+1 xl_target.

When we go out hunting both the hunters and guides/ outfitters lookout for everyone out there. no one likes poachers.make hunters lose their game and guides lose their money. Poachers if found will get reported. Not necessarily because it is morally right to do so but also because they will cause people to lose money.

It might not be the ideal scenario but fear of monetary loss will make people do stuff. Similarly here in the UK, every partridge represents £30 for the farmer. He makes sure no illegal shooting takes place in his land. If the partridge had no cost associated to them, they wouldnt bother as much. Maybe even be glad to be rid of pests/something that feeds on his crops.

Weather it will work in India, no one can guarantee. What one can see is that for some reason, the current code of practice in india isnt working whereas hunting methods are helping in conservation in many countries across the world.
You want more gun control? Use both hands!

God made man and God made woman, but Samuel Colt made them equal.

One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted. by Jose Gasset.

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Re: Wolves Hunted This Season

Post by Rajat » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:40 pm

Actually this statement has got nothing to do with or limited to poaching or legal / illegal hunting etc or enforcement or laws. This simply was a remark on corruption, why it exists, why don't we do anything about it etc etc. On the citizens of India in general.

So what I said was based on the line "you the person reading this". Interpretation: These lines are being read by the forum members or directed towards the people who might be reading this ( the ones who are reading this are still a minority and most people in India still live in Villages and are not much educated or open to such issues. I say educated and not "literate") and it makes sense to most of them. But we are just a handful here, we do make a difference but the majority is as written in my quote. What I said next was that we need to team up and although "we" matter but we need to unify and need numbers and the other people to join us and protest. Protest on why there is no strict action on the corrupt, why it exist, why our basic rights are denied to us and why do we have to struggle for it. Still.

I do not disagree with Haji's post on which I had commented and what he said basically makes sense. It is true.

Back when India was ruled by the Raj, a far larger number of people couldn't read and didn't care about the same issue. However, they did clearly understand what would happen to them if they were caught poaching or "stealing Government wood". Did it happen? Yes, but not to the extent that it happens today.
As they say +1 :) I will not bring up any statistics to prove and get the ratio or people who were literate then and now and the growth of population then and now. Not needed. This is not the point.

The point is that I agree with you on this. Now the point that is important is that (in a general sense and related to this) is that the people and officials who enforced these laws were more competent and less corrupt and handled things in a better way. This is not to start a debate here about the British rule and how they damaged India etc etc but just with reference to XL's statement.
The reason for that is they know the chances of them getting caught is slim. There just is not enough enforcement of the laws (for whatever reason). However, if they had more dedicated, better equipped forest rangers manning these areas, the chances of getting caught would be higher but this type of enforcement costs money and apparently no one cares enough to make it available. I submit, that poachers today know the penalties but their chances of getting caught are slim to non-existent so they happily break the law whenever they want to.
You are scoring today! +1 again :D

Are you simply in a general sense, hunting and the money generation apart, not saying that the system is its present form "for whatever reasons" lacks competence, ability and most important of all the will desire and dedication to work and put in their best in this or any other areas. We have laws but these are not enforced and the criminals are getting fearless knowing the inaction by the authorities and the loopholes in the law.

Ok so now someone cares and pumps in money, with all things remaining the same, the forest wardens and the rangers have more funds and can afford better equipment, get a higher paycheck. What happens now? Where does this money go? It is anyone's guess. Anyone who understands the system here.
I will provide examples if needed of well funded agencies with zero output.

Not saying that no one is honest and dedicated in India. A lot of people are but they know what they have to face and what they are able to do in the face all this.

I have personally seen the Inspector General of Police speaking to a policeman on phone and asking him to go and arrest a person as he had been located. The Sipahi's (policeman)reply was" Sahib, the warrant was with the person on night duty and he took it home I think." and the Sub Inspectors mobile was not reachable. All this to let the criminal get away.

Do you see this in the U.S. of A?
On the other hand, a poacher here, in my state in the US, is almost guaranteed to be caught. Either when he tries to get the meat processed or tries to dispose of the skin or the meat. Therefore poaching here is almost non-existent. It just doesn't pay to poach.

You just have to make it too costly (either monetarily, physically or otherwise) for a human being to desist from undesirable activities. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.
I agree again. You are right fundamentally.

Poaching (just an example for any other illegal activity) pays here and not only the poacher but the law enforcer too to look the other way.

So the point is that that first of all it should be ensured that law breakers are caught and sentenced. But this means that the officials will not get their pay check from them. What should be done? Strong laws should be enacted and enforced with strong and honest officers handling everything. The people should be actively involved with all the issues and work with the system.

Does not India have money? Enough I would say, look at all the money the politicians and bureaucrats have stashed away. Every now and then we get a glimpse from the news paper that a clerk was caught with assets disproportionate to his income, a junior engineer in some Govt. project had a few Crore Rupees stashed away somewhere and we are not even speaking about the senior management here!

The other problem being that they do not even work after taking a bribe. They accept it as their basic right or as a compulsory fee!

Funds!! India even has a parallel economy. Which other country in the world has it? Buy a piece of land or a house and pay 50% from your official bank account (on records which will be taxed ) and the remaining 50% in cash, off the record. Where else can you do this and where does all the money come from.

Lets first take measures to ensure that whatever funds are available today really reach where they were intended to go and then we will worry about generating funds for conservation and the measures we have to take for it.

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