IFG Members support for RKBA PIL

[goodboy_mentor]

We should have a systematic approach to the problem, and firstly try to get the import ban off and then try to approach the courts for changing the notion of the police department that income cannot be the sole criterion for eligibility of licence. Good antecedents alone are the sole criterion. since it entirely depends upon the discretion of the police whether an individual is eligible for licence it is almost certain that the courts would not issue a blanket order regarding easy licencing procedure. So I would suggest that any individual whose licence has been turned down on the ground of income criterion or/ and having already owning a firearm licence should approach the Court first and then if we pull in to get his same I can promise you that we would have a precedent or ratio for the others following.

I fully agree with with above opinion of Jayanta Mukherjee. I believe following clauses of Arms Act cause the problem:
CHAPTER III - PROVISIONS RELATING TO LICENCES
13. Grant of licences
:
(2) On receipt of an application, the licensing authority, after making such inquiry, if any, as it may consider necessary, shall, subject to the other provisions of this Chapter, by order in writing either grant the licence or refuse to grant the same.
:
14. Refusal of licences
(i) where such licence is required by a person whom the licensing authority has reason to believe---
(1) to be prohibited by this Act or by any other law for the time being in force from acquiring, having in his possession or carrying any arms or ammunition, or
(2) to be of unsound mind, or
(3) to be for any reason unfit for a licence under this Act; or
(ii) where the licensing authority deems it necessary for the security of the public peace or for public safety to refuse to grant such licence.

So the loose clauses/terms in Arms Act that keep the applicants at the mercy of licensing authority to get firearm license:
1)"Inquiry" - Recommendation of inquiry can be anything(time for completion of inquiry is another pain)
2)"Reason to believe" - A loose term, can be any reason based on personal perception of licensing authority.
3)"Any reason" - Another loose term, can be any reason based on personal perception of licensing authority.
4)"Public peace"/"Public safety" - Another loose term/excuse open to be interpreted as per personal perception of licensing authority.

I believe these loose terms "Inquiry", "Reason to believe", "Any reason", "Public peace"/"Public safety" need to go. A person can be a danger to "Public peace"/"Public safety" only when he is insane or is a proclaimed offender(means he is evading the due process of law). Those who are real danger to public peace/safety, are not dependent on licensing authority for getting arms licenses. They have their own ways and means to get much better firearms at a much cheaper cost. Our Hon'ble Home Minister has publicly accepted this fact: http://www.ptinews.com/news/345543_Maoi ... hidambaram

The fight has to be in a systematic, organized way, with lot of supporters in every section and level of society. One idea I can think of is, we can have a particular section in this website, were people facing difficulties in obtaining firearm license and willing to support the cause, can write their problems. After we get large number of people facing difficulty in obtaining license, a PIL is filed in any High Court, to ask government to reconsider the law, to make it very specific, leaving no room for individuals in Licensing Authority to implement Arms Act as per their personal ideas.

Any ideas about legal feasibility and other acceptable ways/means to convince the government to see the reality are welcome.

[captrakshitsharma]

yesssssssssss and i can say it a thousand times.... and then again

[goodboy_mentor]

http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7731

[ravi.sharma]

Hi GBM,

As it is famous, In India, Before making or implementing ONE rule, 100 ways are kept in mind to Break / Bend it, the loose points in the ARMS ACT are very good example of the same . The suggestion by you to dedicate a section for Liecensing problem seems to be a good idea, lets see what the MODS have to say about it.


Ravi.

[eternalme]

I sent a letter to the ministery of home affairs regarding changing the policy.
Received a letter from the under secretary , govt of India regarding the same stating that your Request will be considered as and when the law is revised.

Another letter gone in the thik big files for getting dust.

[ravi.sharma]

Hi eternalme,

I sent a letter to the ministery of home affairs regarding changing the policy.
Received a letter from the under secretary , govt of India regarding the same stating that your Request will be considered as and when the law is revised.

Another letter gone in the thik big files for getting dust.

You should still consider your selve lucky to receive a reply . Nice try though.


Ravi.

[chucky]

Yes to both the propositions. If weapons should be banned irrespective of the category, then kitchen knives also fall under the classification of weapon. The onus is on the person using the tool, rather than the tool itself. In other words Hang the murderer not the gun. But in the Indian context it is like flogging a dead horse.

-- Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:46 pm --

I sent a letter to the ministery of home affairs regarding changing the policy.
Received a letter from the under secretary , govt of India regarding the same stating that your Request will be considered as and when the law is revised.

Another letter gone in the thik big files for getting dust.

right on the point.
"as and when" means Kiss your petition Goodbye.

[muthu]

NO, NO, NO

i think most of you did not understand indian situation.
yes, we (me too) love guns, love firing, love the sound, love the thrill behind it.....etc.....
But NO free flow of guns in every one hands....

Every one knows that tension / anger spoils health.
But is it possible to say that we wont get tension / anger at any point in our life ?
No, it is not in our control.

Like wise, if we have free flow of guns, without our knowledge we will tend to use it against human at some point of time.
yes, you can punish, hang, jail, cut limbs,...etc, do what ever you want on the person who used the gun.
yes, he will also realize his mistake later on....

But on the other side, a gone life is gone. We cannot bring it back at ANY cost.
Be that life an unknown person, or one of your closest blood relation, it has the same value

That's why even a police to get shooting order, needs to get permission from n number of officials.

LIFE IS VERY PRECIOUS

Aware about the situation in US, where they announce different governemnt schemes like
exchange of books, free educations, etc..... for guns returned by citizens.
It is because, they have realized the impact of free flow of guns.

Let us not do that mistake in India.

[chucky]

NO, NO, NO

i think most of you did not understand indian situation.
yes, we (me too) love guns, love firing, love the sound, love the thrill behind it.....etc.....
But NO free flow of guns in every one hands....

Every one knows that tension / anger spoils health.
But is it possible to say that we wont get tension / anger at any point in our life ?
No, it is not in our control.

Like wise, if we have free flow of guns, without our knowledge we will tend to use it against human at some point of time.
yes, you can punish, hang, jail, cut limbs,...etc, do what ever you want on the person who used the gun.
yes, he will also realize his mistake later on....

But on the other side, a gone life is gone. We cannot bring it back at ANY cost.

Be that life an unknown person, or one of your closest blood relation, it has the same value

That's why even a police to get shooting order, needs to get permission from n number of officials.

LIFE IS VERY PRECIOUS

Aware about the situation in US, where they announce different governemnt schemes like
exchange of books, free educations, etc..... for guns returned by citizens.
It is because, they have realized the impact of free flow of guns.

Let us not do that mistake in India.

Do u mean to say that there are no illegal guns in India. Try to find the murderers of all the people who have been shot in the past three years. People who tend to misuse it are the people who acquire it through illegal methods. U have a weapon in hand which cant be traced back to u then u misuse it. When u know that u will be caught, no one in his right mind will be using it. I am not advocating for guns being distributed through PDS. For that matter do u think murder is a unknown phenomenon in India, telling people not to do something when they don't have the option to choose is very easy. As far as USA is concerned, The government is willing to buy back the guns, NOT BAN THE SALES. People would bring down the Government crying hoarse about their first amendment. What is freedom all about if i cant choose. People die every day after being burnt, accident involving vehicles, being aboard a bus, train or a plane for that matter, does it mean u propose to ban Kerosene, petrol, LPG, All of the public transport available. Many People have died after falling in open drains. Banning Drainage is not a option or a solution. I am not insensitive to these instances. But Try not to treat the symptoms, Treat the Disease. As u said LIFE IS VERY PRECIOUS, can i have something to defend it? Why do people think that a gun is just a weapon for offensive and destructive purposes, it can also be used for defensive purposes. As i said before BLAME THE USER NOT THE TOOL.

[cottage cheese]

Muthu,

While some individuals may talk loosely or carelessly of a totally free gun market in India, it is the opinion of the majority of us gun people, including most at IFG, that regulations are certainly needed....even more so in a country as diverse and transitional as India. We don't talk of removing Arms regulation, even though we crib a lot against it. Our collective 'campaign' is directed at more reasonable and less restrictive Arms Regulation.

Why should most of us not be able understand the Indian situation? We are Indians, and we tend to be aware of most of whats happening around us and to our nation...

To live in a fence-sitting benumbed pacifist utopia which you appear to propagating is your right. May it also be known that I think it reflects a distinctly exclusive mindset that many establishment folks and their darlings have. In simpler words I exercise my right to disagree with you views, and also the right to be more than annoyed at it.

So you love guns, you have guns, then what of your fellow citizen who might be less privileged and perhaps less connected. If you believe guns are meant for the joy of light and sound and meant only for putting holes on paper, then I think its you who is getting the wrong gauge of things. It's typical of the confused post independence gobbledygook of Gandhian, socialist , progressive, democratic etc. ideas that the establishment chose to propound as the ideals of the nation....forgetting that Gandhi also talked of preferring violent measures to cowardice.

What of the right to self defense? ...life property..loved ones? No I don't think a cretin repenting in jail for murdering me or my loved ones will help in anyway. Is the life of the invader of my house or the anal-polyps that perpetrated 26-11 so precious? Precious enough that I'd rather allow myself to be shot that shoot back in defense? Don't make me laugh!

The lives of decent, civilized law abiding, citizens is precious irrespective of social standing, community or religion. Why should that be equated with senseless criminals murderers & terrorists? I put no worth on the lives of such scum. Once such a life is gone - GOOD!, and its even more fortunate that its not coming back.

You failed to gauge the fact that all that we ask for is free and fair availability of legal guns to citizenry who meet the criteria under law.

Would you believe that the Arms Act 1959, save for a number of idiotic sections, is in theory pretty fair? The problems in Indian governance is with interpretation. What the law says and what is practiced are very different things.

regards,
cc

[eternalme]

Hi Guys,

Did any one receive any response from Ministry regarding this? I received a letter some days back, probably their way of saying - Shutup and thankyou

[indiaone]

I fully supportive the move of filing a PIL to get the ban on importation of firearms lifted. However, before doing so we have to be clear of our approach to the whole issue of arms control , possession and importation.
It would be better to approach one issue at a time.
Arms control and right to possess arms are very sensitive issues and are bound to generate considerable public debate. Therefore, we should first concentrate on lifting of ban on importation of arms . This is very simple as it needs only a Government notification to make the necessary changes in the Customs Regulations.
In case we go in for a PIL , it will take considerable time. A faster attempt can be done by requesting some members of parliament to raise the issue. Shri Digvijay Singh MP and former Minster of State for External Affairs is an actively associated with Rifle Associations. It would be worthwhile to approach him, when he is in Delhi. IF any of the members of the forum who are based in Delhi can kindly take the initative and make an attempt, it would be perhaps a positive development.

[goodboy_mentor]

eternalme,

First of all I would like to thank you for having made THE EFFORT. This is one of the most important thing. We need to put in a collective, systematic and concentrated effort. I have already given a suggestion about separate section about problems faced acquiring firearm license, so that we can collect actionable data in sufficient quantity:
http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... &start=131

As I have already mentioned at:
http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 2&start=92
that the loose terms/sections in Arms Act need to go, as they are the cause of real problems. So long government babus are given the freedom to "interpret" any law as per their personal perception, there are bound to be problems. Arms Act should be crystal clear as to want can be done and what cannot be done.

And for people with opinions like that of muthu, I would like to tell them that in India, for criminals it is already a "free for all" affair to get a firearm. Did the perpetrators of 26/11 come to get a "license"
before committing a crime? On the contrary Arms Act made their job easier by ensuring that none of their victims was armed to harm them.

If criminals depended on "licensed" firearms, then we would be having a virtually crime free society, but reality is just the opposite. Government of India has already "accepted" this indirectly:
http://disarmament.un.org/cab/bms3/1BMS ... 02008.html

Criminals and lunatics will always have access to firearms regardless of the law. So whom does this Arms Act is actually controlling? It us, the law abiding citizens. Present situation is:

1) Criminals are fully armed & law abiding citizens(victims) are unarmed. Making the job of criminals EASY.

Believe me, even if we have a free for all arms policy, the only problem it will create is, it will make the job of criminals more RISKY:

2)Criminals fully armed as before & law abiding citizen equally armed to defend themselves from criminals.

We should not feel guilty if we demand RKBA or for that matter even if some people are demanding "free for all" firearms policy.

[eternalme]

The million dollar question is -

When are we going to file the PIL ? I had a lawyer sometime back who was willing to do that immediately after the mumbai attacks.
I shared the same here but we couldn't gather enough points that time, hope we form some solid points this time, quoting stats, and reasons as to why the present arms law is like this (becasue of 1857 mutiny) and even after freedom it hasn't changes a bit.
We are still singing in our law books 'long live the queen' , for if we are not, then how come everything is exact replica of the way its done in the UK.
Hope father of the constitution won't file a case against me for this point.

Neverthless the point stays valid and loud, UK is now practicing very strict gun control and we are living the same.
But then we are not UK, there are as many illegal firearms and criminal around, on top of that the criminal are growing , few colleges in the north have become the factories for producing some fine specimen.
The ideals of these people are Babl** singh, Ch**b** singh, Mu**a Baj**** , Mu**tar A**ari and they refer to these gems of society as their bhai.

Their bhais ,in order to strenghten their position and stronghold for vasooli then grant official issue imported handgun to their favourite one while others have to do with desi 'jeep steering rod barrel ' specimen.

In kanpur every fifth guy can probably point a gun at you if you are around DarshanPurwa, Chowk, P-road, Heera manka Purwa etc locations.

Some of these guys travel to metros for business and bring along with them their worthy posession.
Now we have a situation, there are people with arms and intention to use as well, with no fear of having to abandon a very expensive piece or being traced by the bullet signature.



Now story of the Milch Cow -

Oe fine day a die-hard nationalist, a regular tax payer (a milch cow for the stablishment) is sleeping inside his house, when he hears a loud bang and a pistol goes off, he peeps from the window and sees someone being looted/beaten/tortured but becasue his balls have been cut off with the law, all he can do is hide behind the curtain and cover his children and wife.Calls the cops who shower him with 100 question instead of immediately arriving, and even after arriving they come first to the milch cows house ,making sure everyone knows that he was the one to call the cops.The bad guys will next time target the milch cow first.

Pretty good life eh ?

A group of milch cows are entertaining in a hotel after a days hard work and some "Anal polyps" (Borrowed term) pop up and pump some armour piercing rounds in their bodies, poor ones ran here and there but no one came to help, they couldn't help themselves as the law had made provisions such that in case of an attack like this the milch cow couldn't help but die a sorry death. Some were trapped inside the hotel for days, Animal farm media and news papers were abalaze with the story but then every one is busy chewing the fodder, noone give a heed to the long gone Milch Cows ,for, there are plenty more to bank upon and collect the precious milk (Tax).

Every one in the Animal farm is important except the Milch cow breed, new taxes are planned based on how good the milch cow is making milk so that she can be milked more, new schemes are launched to cut her fodder a bit more, and surprisingly no grant, nothing comes to the poor milch cow, though it goes for industries, irrigation,fertilizers, and god knows what other things.

Milch cow is step child, does the best to get the worst.

End of Milch cow story -----

A middle class tax payer's thought process --
<<
When will my government treat me like human for gods sake? if I pay for service I receive it, If I pay my god-damn taxes I want it count.

It's my money and noone provided any help in my education, my job and my upbringing . I never lived on ration food, Never went to public school, don't go to government hospital for fear of getting some other infection.
I pay the road tax, pay electricity bill, pay water bill, pay house tax which I own , pay sale tax, pay service tax, pay education cess, pay tax for everything except breathing and yet have to pay income tax as if my income process is somehow supported by the government.
And yet my life is in gods hands, police man will not teat me with respect though I pay for his salary, some other refer to me "Bloody civilian" while drinking subsidised wine brought from my earnings.
If I am going to some urgent work i might be stopped for an hour becasue some representative of the public is passing and is having z class security.
Oh yes I have a new budget coming lets hope there is something for me in there, after all I pay some good taxs, the government must atleast be as honest as a business or service provider and render.
>>

With imputs from some milch cows.

[aarkay]

hello ifgians we need to file the pil as soon as possible.while good law abiding citizens like us have to live at the mercy of cops to our safety criminals dont need anybodys permission to hurt or kill a person.while some of the people have arms licence others are denied this basic right to security of self and property.this is also a kind of discrimination.every citizen in u.s.has a right to have a gun if he is law abiding and dont have a previous record of criminal activities.we also have to allow imports of good quality fire arms.in u.s.a. you can buy a decent semi auto pistol for 500 dollars here we are paying more than seventy thousand for a cheap pistol from iof.is this fair.let the government allow people to import arms with a minimum price of 500 dollars.even if they levy an import duty of 100% it will cost us less than what we buy here for astronomical sum for an old imported fire arm.my cousin is a practicing lawyer of the supreme cort of india. i am going to ask her to file a pil regarding this issues we have.ifgians please help me with vital statistics like incidents of crimes where innocent people were harmed or killed by hoods because of not having theeir own protection or the inabilityof cops to protect them etc.also provide me with sale prices of old imported fire arms doing the rounds in our country.