Breaking news - Airguns now need license!

[silver9]

@Doc

[srswamy]

Gentlemen,

With due respect to the anger, agony, irritation, of the members here for the Delhi HC verdict on airgun licensing, let me voice my opinion.
Of course, it is sad, not completely acceptable to curb the law-abiding citizens of the country not to use airguns for "legal" purposes.

In my personal opinion, I am regular in the shooting range in the city and I use the range's guns for target shooting practice. If target practice is the motive of owning an air rifle, then it is completely acceptable to own an air rifle and use it. The question is, are we stopping there?

The argument could be "All crimes in the city are committed by the indigenous, illegal firearms". True, to a great extent. However, can we completely ignore the fact, the owners of air guns are also not very responsible, at all times? There have been instances. I am just quoting one, here.

New Delhi: A class IX student of a government school in Saket shot at a schoolmate with an airgun following an altercation during a cricket match on Wednesday, causing a minor injury on the latter's shoulder. A case has not been registered as the families have reportedly reached a compromise and the police are still waiting for the medico-legal report.

The incident happened around 9:30 am when the boys, a 15-yearold and a 13-year-old, were playing cricket during the physical education period in the ground of the Vir Chand Singh Garhwali Sarvodaya Bal Vidyalaya in Saket's J block.

The police took the boy to the AIIMS trauma centre where he was given first aid. Officials said the boy had suffered a minor injury. The accused, meanwhile, fled the school climbing the wall. Friends and family said the accused boy was offended by a comment about his father, who died in a road accident a few years back. The boy was later apprehended from his native Tigri village and the gun recovered. DCP HGS Dhaliwal said the boy found the gun on a road and he kept it in his pocket. "This gun is .22-bore pellet gun, normally used to burst balloons at fairs."

Pasted from <http://news.in.msn.com/crimefile/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4208659>

Now, who is to be blamed here? Who is to be held responsible for such incidents.

Here comes another argument from this very thread:

Here is a comment posted on indianshooting.com on an article on this issue....

"Awesome, I totally favor it. At least now we won't be seeing pervert teens shooting girls on street and getting away with it."

What do you say.....

M.

In response,

Thanks for the enlightenment, Fantumfan, I did not know such low IQ creatures could exist and still call themselves part of the human race!

Now, by the above statement by calling them as low IQ creatures, are we denying the fact such incidents do not happen?

For your kind information, gentlemen, regulations on Air Guns are not only in India, but also in the international arena. One example is here in this link: National Small-bore Rifle Association http://www.nsra.co.uk/index.php?option= ... Itemid=101

An excerpt which reads

'Although serious incidents are rare, there have been cases in recent years where children have got hold of carelessly stored airguns that have resulted in severe injuries and even deaths. We want to do everything in our power to keep the risk of such incidents to an absolute minimum.

Adrian Whiting, Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) lead on Firearms and Licensing said: 'The police service supports this control on the security of air weapons. Responsible owners already take sensible precautions to ensure safe storage of their air weapons. This control will place no additional burden on them.

Pasted from <http://www.nsra.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=935&Itemid=101>

What say here, dear fellow members? The logic catches my attention. Are we going to term them as "Low IQ Creatures" too?

I think it is important at this juncture that all gun enthusiasts rally together and refuse to apply for airgun licence as a matter of principle.

Well, that seems to be going against a "judgement" made by the "High court" of YOUR country of residence. As a responsible gun owner and a man of good knowledge, please handle the issue with patience and due respect to the matter under discussion.

All the exchange of words here are only on the "effect" and we have comfortably forgotten the "cause".

Gentlemen, as Vikram points out correctly, the laws of the land must be obeyed. As responsible citizens, we can voice our opinion, but in a mature, professional and lawful way.

With my limited knowledge, may I suggest something?

First -- use the RTI to get the information on the recorded "incidents/accidents" caused by the irresponsible use of Air Guns.
Second -- Arrive at a comparative report to study the situation, based on data available.
Third -- Deduce logically, from the study, whether the air guns are being "used" or "misused".
Fourth -- Send the necessary results to the concerned people, explaining and educating them, WHY WE CLAIM WHAT WE CLAIM.
FIFTH -- As a social responsibility, conduct educational programs, awareness programs to "PREPARE" the country men for an "ARMED SOCIETY".

A more seasoned approach is required here, rather than ridiculing the Honourable Jury, Lawers and of course, the Petitioners. While I am all with you in getting the fundamental gun rights, let the actions be as responsible as they are expected to be.

[maximus1]

Sad damn Sad..............

[brihacharan]

Hi Guys,
> It's disappointing, tragic and to say the least an infringement on the sense and sensibilities of the human race.
> The people who promulgate such abhoring dictats do not know which end of the gun fires!
> Next they would ask Boxers & Kung Fu sportsmen to get licenses for practicing their art!
> Kitchen Knives, Carpenter Tools, Mechanic's Screw drivers / Spanners etc will be next on their agenda!!!! Hey I forgot Barber's Razor and Shoemaker's Awl & the list can go on!
> IFG should appeal against this 'firman' and get a stay order.

Brihacharan

[marksman]

Well well well guys. What makes you all so tense and nervous about this High Court ruling thing. Don't you realize that the fire arm laws imposed on us in circa 1858 have not yet changed entirely. I assure you it will take at least half a century more before this law of airgun licensing business comes into being. Remember, It took several decades to hike the fire arm renewal fees that prevailed from the days of Raaj from meager Rs. 4 per fire arm to the current amount.
RELAX.......

Marksman

[brihacharan]

Well well well guys. What makes you all so tense and nervous about this High Court ruling thing. Don't you realize that the fire arm laws imposed on us in circa 1858 have not yet changed entirely. I assure you it will take at least half a century more before this law of airgun licensing business comes into being. Remember, It took several decades to hike the fire arm renewal fees that prevailed from the days of Raaj from meager Rs. 4 per fire arm to the current amount.
RELAX.......

Marksman

> Thanks Buddy - Ur observation is comforting!
Brihacharan

[SUFFIX]

Foolishness is inevitable. Someone fire pellets on someone if not pellets, may be stone or acid or may be some more innovative idea to take revenge. If you see newspaper of all state, you will find Acid throwing, poisoning are almost daily in one of the newspaper and NOT shooting pellets to take revenge.
1980’s we have few million vulture. Today merely few thousands. I hope you agree no one hunts vulture. They are killed majorly due to poisoning or electrocution. So mass murderers are NOT air gunners!

Gentlemen,

With due respect to the anger, agony, irritation, of the members here for the Delhi HC verdict on airgun licensing, let me voice my opinion.
Of course, it is sad, not completely acceptable to curb the law-abiding citizens of the country not to use airguns for "legal" purposes.

In my personal opinion, I am regular in the shooting range in the city and I use the range's guns for target shooting practice. If target practice is the motive of owning an air rifle, then it is completely acceptable to own an air rifle and use it. The question is, are we stopping there?

The argument could be "All crimes in the city are committed by the indigenous, illegal firearms". True, to a great extent. However, can we completely ignore the fact, the owners of air guns are also not very responsible, at all times? There have been instances. I am just quoting one, here.

New Delhi: A class IX student of a government school in Saket shot at a schoolmate with an airgun following an altercation during a cricket match on Wednesday, causing a minor injury on the latter's shoulder. A case has not been registered as the families have reportedly reached a compromise and the police are still waiting for the medico-legal report.

The incident happened around 9:30 am when the boys, a 15-yearold and a 13-year-old, were playing cricket during the physical education period in the ground of the Vir Chand Singh Garhwali Sarvodaya Bal Vidyalaya in Saket's J block.

The police took the boy to the AIIMS trauma centre where he was given first aid. Officials said the boy had suffered a minor injury. The accused, meanwhile, fled the school climbing the wall. Friends and family said the accused boy was offended by a comment about his father, who died in a road accident a few years back. The boy was later apprehended from his native Tigri village and the gun recovered. DCP HGS Dhaliwal said the boy found the gun on a road and he kept it in his pocket. "This gun is .22-bore pellet gun, normally used to burst balloons at fairs."

Pasted from <http://news.in.msn.com/crimefile/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4208659>

Now, who is to be blamed here? Who is to be held responsible for such incidents.

Here comes another argument from this very thread:

Here is a comment posted on indianshooting.com on an article on this issue....

"Awesome, I totally favor it. At least now we won't be seeing pervert teens shooting girls on street and getting away with it."

What do you say.....

M.

In response,

Thanks for the enlightenment, Fantumfan, I did not know such low IQ creatures could exist and still call themselves part of the human race!

Now, by the above statement by calling them as low IQ creatures, are we denying the fact such incidents do not happen?

For your kind information, gentlemen, regulations on Air Guns are not only in India, but also in the international arena. One example is here in this link: National Small-bore Rifle Association http://www.nsra.co.uk/index.php?option= ... Itemid=101

An excerpt which reads

'Although serious incidents are rare, there have been cases in recent years where children have got hold of carelessly stored airguns that have resulted in severe injuries and even deaths. We want to do everything in our power to keep the risk of such incidents to an absolute minimum.

Adrian Whiting, Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) lead on Firearms and Licensing said: 'The police service supports this control on the security of air weapons. Responsible owners already take sensible precautions to ensure safe storage of their air weapons. This control will place no additional burden on them.

Pasted from <http://www.nsra.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=935&Itemid=101>

What say here, dear fellow members? The logic catches my attention. Are we going to term them as "Low IQ Creatures" too?

I think it is important at this juncture that all gun enthusiasts rally together and refuse to apply for airgun licence as a matter of principle.

Well, that seems to be going against a "judgement" made by the "High court" of YOUR country of residence. As a responsible gun owner and a man of good knowledge, please handle the issue with patience and due respect to the matter under discussion.

All the exchange of words here are only on the "effect" and we have comfortably forgotten the "cause".

Gentlemen, as Vikram points out correctly, the laws of the land must be obeyed. As responsible citizens, we can voice our opinion, but in a mature, professional and lawful way.

With my limited knowledge, may I suggest something?

First -- use the RTI to get the information on the recorded "incidents/accidents" caused by the irresponsible use of Air Guns.
Second -- Arrive at a comparative report to study the situation, based on data available.
Third -- Deduce logically, from the study, whether the air guns are being "used" or "misused".
Fourth -- Send the necessary results to the concerned people, explaining and educating them, WHY WE CLAIM WHAT WE CLAIM.
FIFTH -- As a social responsibility, conduct educational programs, awareness programs to "PREPARE" the country men for an "ARMED SOCIETY".

A more seasoned approach is required here, rather than ridiculing the Honourable Jury, Lawers and of course, the Petitioners. While I am all with you in getting the fundamental gun rights, let the actions be as responsible as they are expected to be.

[goodboy_mentor]

If you see newspaper of all state, you will find Acid throwing, poisoning are almost daily in one of the newspaper and NOT shooting pellets to take revenge.
1980’s we have few million vulture. Today merely few thousands. I hope you agree no one hunts vulture. They are killed majorly due to poisoning or electrocution. So mass murderers are NOT air gunners!

Yes, there have been incidents of animals(not to mention about bride burning cases) being burned alive by people like one mentioned at http://www.treehugger.com/files/2011/03 ... -india.php Are the courts also going to implement licensing for matchsticks and petrol?

[icemanV]

@srswamy: A very mature and thoughtfull response. Appreciated.
@Vikram:I am trying to send you a PM. Is it blocked?
Regards,
Ice

[snIPer]

so it has to go thru the parliment first to get amended to the arms act and then will trickle down to us.
hmm
/S/

[fantumfan2003]

Here are some POINTS that can be put across to during an appeal.

- Target shooters are well trained in safe handling of air rifles and pistols.
- They are mature, responsible and are very disciplined in handling of air rifles and pistols.
- They shoot in a controlled environment and follow all laid down rules in a match and at a venue.
- They shoot at targets and do not engage in any harmful activity towards animals and birds with their air rifles and air pistols.
- Like any sport, the earlier one starts the better. Ideally starting age is 9 to 10 years
- Individual air rifles and air pistols are necessary for achieving high scores.
- Club owned air rifles and air pistols which are shared amongst two or more target shooters do not help in achieving high scores.
- Air rifles and air pistols used in target shooting are allowed to be owned freely in many countries including UK, Germany, and USA.

Do come up with yours but think about it before suggesting, given that this has turned into a serious issue.

M.

-- Wed Jun 01, 2011 18:32 --

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/b ... /201228?hp

The nation knows about this now.......

M.

[timmy]

Gentlemen:

It is most disconcerting that, just as the slow achievement of progress appeared, this setback has been flung into our laps. It is frustrating when rights are denied and what is in practice runs counter to the ideals that are supposed to be applied, and also when the setback comes by the means that it has.

I feel that this is the time where there are some of us who will keep on working within the legal ways defined, and move this cause forward. Like any long-term battle, it will be one with bumps in the road and reversals, and it will require a constant attention and pressure despite such disappointments.

Having folks like Abhijeet and others, some known and some working behind the scenes, working with us and for us in this struggle is a very fortunate thing. We must not let the blows of temporary events deter us from persevering in this matter.

Many years ago, my Grandfather, who had a small produce truck farm far out in the country, planted a row of maple trees along the state highway at the back of his farm. Neighbors made fun of him for this, questioning the planting of a row of trees out in the middle of nowhere.

After I was born and became an adult, those trees had become beautiful additions to the landscape, a cool place to rest in the hot sun. This fulfilled the saying that one doesn't plant a tree for one's self, but for the next generation.

This is exactly the same situation we face regarding RKBA. It is a long struggle, and achievement depends upon determination.

[sumanngon]

To Mr. Vikram, Mr. srsawmy and Mr. fantumfan2003,

Hope the forum is free enough to put in my thoughts on your comments.

Mr. Vikram said:

While it is a sad and disheartening development, may I appeal to all of you to exercise discretion by not making any posts that show disrespect towards our judiciary or undermine its authority.Also, while speaking about the antis, please do not be abusive.Be critical.But not abusive,hard as it might be.Also, please remember that we have to obey the laws of the land whatever they might be.Of course that does not mean that we should cease the fight to amend them constitutionally and peacefully.

- Agreed on most of what you have said, but while restraining display of disrespect we should not accept the role of fake display of respect towards authority who have passed a erroneous judgement which pushes back a sport activity back to Jurassic period. Wrong judgement will be and should be edited and opposed. If a criminal called Phoolam Devi gets to be in politics and she passes few rules - edited. Pre-independence period most Indians were told to obey the rule of the land - like hell they did! No one owns the land but the masses and where were the mass taken into the discussion before passing a judgement. Error. Ofcourse we should fight to amend the error constitutionally and peacefully - but also (as and when required) vocally ( if required High Pitched)edited

Mr. Vikram said
"Please do your best to support NAGRI and help win this fight.Actions speak much louder than mere words."
- ofcourse. All support for NAGRI but the congregation should have strong intent to be actively push the matter and not have a mere chit chat with the authorities and then returning back empty handed and thanking the authorities for giving them their haloed time. We have a right to demand their time! Thanks or no thanks.


Mr. Swamy replied:
"First -- use the RTI to get the information on the recorded "incidents/accidents" caused by the irresponsible use of Air Guns."

- Why should we???? Many incidents/accidents has happened with people throwing stones at others, Throwing locally available acid on other - Who kept track? - any ban happened on the availability of such materials that put other people at harms way? No.
Instead of banning the instruments please amend to divert the air-gunner towards more positive activity of sports and implement stringent punitive actions on misuse. You lower the rates for membership for rifle club associations for kids to zilch, give subsidies for buying airguns for schools, organise sports activity, organise camping teach them survival techniques. Divert the energy towards positive activity.

Mr. Swamy said:
"Second -- Arrive at a comparative report to study the situation, based on data available."

- Compared to what? Please Do not create a precedence for any other ban or restriction in any other form to happen. Nothing is compared just study the data with which the high court has arrived at such a conclusion.

Mr Swamy said:
Third -- Deduce logically, from the study, whether the air guns are being "used" or "misused".

What?? Everything in this world is a weapon and also a tool all can be used or misused. Its the intention. If the intention is bad deduce the age of the person who had the bad intent - see who or what has encouraged that sort of intent. Behavior correction will go a long way in creating a more stable society.

Mr. Swamy Said:
Fourth -- Send the necessary results to the concerned people, explaining and educating them, WHY WE CLAIM WHAT WE CLAIM.
Darned right you are!!!Totally agree with you on that point.

Mr. Sawmy said
FIFTH -- As a social responsibility, conduct educational programs, awareness programs to "PREPARE" the country men for an "ARMED SOCIETY".

- Fantastic. Agreed but not on the " armed society" lets rather be a sportive society. We can arm ourselves with anything if needed even a man without a weapon can stay armed by the virtue of his intellect and physical strength and ways to inflict a standoff with the knowledge of martial arts. Lets not try to look like a tiger at the end of all discussion - lets be one!


Mr Fantunfan2003 Said:
Here are some POINTS that can be put across to during an appeal.

- Target shooters are well trained in safe handling of air rifles and pistols.
- They are mature, responsible and are very disciplined in handling of air rifles and pistols.
- They shoot in a controlled environment and follow all laid down rules in a match and at a venue.
- They shoot at targets and do not engage in any harmful activity towards animals and birds with their air rifles and air pistols.
- Like any sport, the earlier one starts the better. Ideally starting age is 9 to 10 years
- Individual air rifles and air pistols are necessary for achieving high scores.
- Club owned air rifles and air pistols which are shared amongst two or more target shooters do not help in achieving high scores.
- Air rifles and air pistols used in target shooting are allowed to be owned freely in many countries including UK, Germany, and USA.

- Please, Please do not set a precedence to restructure a rule for only club members and target shooters. Let the law be freed for all in our country. Lets allow kids to have a go with an airgun. Lets return its status back to Toy. As you have rightly put down - Air rifles and air pistols used in target shooting are allowed to be owned freely in many countries including UK, Germany, and USA - please highlight this always.
We wont clarify ourselves for some punk who did some mistake.

Guys apologies if I may have antagonized anyone or if my suggestions show disrespect to anyone. It is not my intention to do so. What I am trying to say is please take up this issue Activelyedited and with a proper Outcry against this rule. We are free people - we will not take all laws and rules lying down without proper justification and social responsibility to back it up.
The situation will dampen the spirit of sport. There will always be miscreants and wrong doers. Create punitive action for them. There will always be many who will look at this sport with bewildered eye wondering how to get in - help them. There will always be people making inappropriate laws - oppose them with logic and change them.
But Dont set a precedence in accepting the law in any form for all that matters.

Rocky, Rocky, Rocky - it aint over till its over - but you have to start throwing your power punches.

If my post is objectionable the moderator is always free to take any action on the same. No hurt feelings will be harbored for such action.

Mr. Sumanngon: I don't wish to single you out here, but you will note that several parts of your post have been edited. The point I would like to make applies to your post, but it also reflects what Vikram has already advised earlier in this thread with regard to the tone of our conversation.

This conversation has been encouraged by your moderator team because it is not only vital to discuss this issue, but it is also just as vital to do so publicly. All the posts on this thread are visible to anyone browsing our activities here, and they are also searchable by use of web tools. What is said on this thread is equivalent to nailing a document up on the town square.

We here at IFG stand squarely behind LEGAL and ONLY LEGAL means of addressing this issue. For this reason, I have edited portions of your post that do not reflect this stance of IFG. You have made many reasoned points, and that is why this thread is important -- to air such points. You have also stated that you are willing to abide by the policies of IFG with regard to posting here -- we appreciate your cooperation.

However, some of the language used in this post does violate what IFG is all about and does violate the policies of posting here. I have edited the wording of this post to remove the portions that are unacceptable.

We have no wish to unduly censor or inhibit the free exchange of views and ideas here at IFG. But all members must understand that IFG has a goal, and has a policy that supports that goal. We want to encourage your thoughts and ideas, whether or not they agree with the personal views of the moderator team. However, we must ask that all, especially on the subject of this thread, remember the policies of IFG when posting.

However others may break the law and engage in reprehensible activities that breach the public trust, we here at IFG are committed to demonstrating that we, and those who stand with us in the support of The Right to Keep and Bear Arms for all citizens, are also committed to being responsible citizens who not only expect the rights of the Constitution to be enforced, but who also stand in the forefront of those citizens who are committed to carrying out the duties of citizenship provided for in that same Constitution.

Perhaps this quote is appropriate to the situation for a number of reasons:

"We believe, as Mahatma Gandhi taught, that rights flow from duty well done." - Indira Gandhi

Thank you all for your understanding.

-- Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:32 am --

No Complaints on edits. My message still contains the body of what I wanted to say. Good to have an experienced moderator. Thank you.

[hornet]

there is no need to apply it in a higher court;please dont panic because applying for litigation in a higher court may rebound for the worse or better? let us wait and see.

[gverma]

What Mr. Bindra had to say about this
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A ... px&h=953db