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Unarmed INDIA

Discussions on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

Unarmed INDIA

Postby lonetrigger » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:32 pm

Unarmed India

I have come across a rather naive proclamation on this forum and on NAGRI that, “Turn the pages of our history and you will realize that India has always believed in providing arms to its bonafide citizens to protect themselves and their families. Arms were always a part of our culture, our rituals, and most importantly owning a firearm was always considered a mark of honor for the head of the family till the British came and changed everything overnight. They passed stringent laws to ensure that it was next to impossible for Indians to own Guns.... How could they allow civilians of a slave nation to own such potent tools of retaliation.” “Among the greatest injustices the British have done to India, to deny an entire nation of the right to own and keep arms will go down as its blackest”.

I have serious objections when people say “India has always believed in providing arms to its bonafide citizens”...and that the Politicians and the breaucracy is stupid and illogical. You may ask why?

India never believed in social-justice and equality and never had either. Except during the brief interval between late BCs and very early ADs, which was the period of Buddhism and since Independence, at least theoretically. The Brahminic India didn't even believe in providing education to all its bonafide citizens along with other basic civilian amenities, how could it arm them. The fact is that the Brahminic society (governed by the ideals of Brahmanism) was based on graded inequality and social-injustice. Military education (read bearing arms) was strictly restricted to a select and a very small privileged group. When other 'bonafide civilians' tried to acquire arms they had to face very grave consequences. Remember how Dronacharya chopped off the thumb of Ekalavya, who did not belong to the privileged class. Have you read how the Karna had to fake his birth-identity to gain Military Education from Parashurama? Have you read about the real history of Shivaji Maharaj's conronation? Why did Guru Gobind Singh had to insist that every Khalsa should bear arms, if every 'bonafide civilian' was already bearing arms?

Any unbiased, apolitical Historian will tell you that the so called “first war of Independence” was a mutiny by the landed gentry backed by their private militia against the British in General and Robert Clive's “Doctrine of Lapse” in particular. Yes, some sepoys of the East India Company sparked it. But never was it a People's revolt. My argument is that the 'bonafide civilians' of India were always denied social justice. The Bhraminic Society never allowed the majority to bear Arms. It was against their vested, selfish interests. Though the Arms Act of 1878 sounds as if it striped the entire nation of its weapons, in actual effect it was aimed to strip the privileged gentry which possessed arms.

If, as falsely assumed, every or most of the Indians had been armed then no foreign invasion into this country would have been complete and final. The truth is that the majority of Indians were not armed. There never was or is, a second line of defense. When the armies of the Privileged warriors were defeated the gates to India were thrown wide open. The invading armies never ever faced any problems marching to Delhi from the battlefield. No 'bonafide civilian' or citizen was ever in a position to resist or even harass the invaders. A minion like, Ahmad Shah Abdali when by tact and unlucky chance defeated the great Maratha force at the third battle of Panipat was any civilian in a position to defend himself from the pillaging Afghans? Or earlier in history, could the Mahamud of Ghazni raid India SEVENTEEN times if he confronted an armed citizenry?

There were however, certain warrior communities who lived on the periphery of our societies about whom Chanakya talks about in his Arthashastra and advises the King not provoke such guilds into war as such war will come at a very great cost. Kalinga was probably one such guild of warriors. In antiquity we hear of these guilds harassing Alexander the Great's army when it was returning to Persia from the conquest of west Punjab (Present AFPAK border)from the Greek records. Beyond this nothing.

If India was an armed nation (armed with education and weapons) would it have accepted the inhuman Chaturvarna or the unequal grading of castes? Every bone in me doubts it.

Now coming to the Arms Act of 1959. If my wonderful country which always “believed in providing arms to its bonafide citizens to protect themselves and their families” and which suffered, “Among the greatest injustices the British have done to India, to deny an entire nation of the right to own and keep arms will go down as its blackest” and indeed wanted to do right this great wrong then why did it connived a License system in the first place? The following quote from Vladimir Lenin might perhaps, help us answer it, “A system of licensing and registration is the perfect device to deny gun ownership to the bourgeoisie”. In Indian context the word bourgeoisie must be equated with NOT privileged.

My take is that the privileged few who came to power after Independence never quite had the WILL to change the status-quo that had been in existence since 1878. However, there were people in the post-independence power setup who did not belong to privileged class and it were these people who were favorable to repeal the Arms Act of 1878. It was because of these men we have Arms Act of 1959. Yet the privileged exercised enough influence to create ambiguity regarding the grant of weapons and deliberately kept the Act open to interpretation, their interpretation. They have since then very strategically tried to keep the benefits of this Act within the privileged group. The definition of the privileged has changed since the antiquity but not by much, really.

Personally I don't think Indian Government will ever ease the situation with respect to the Right to bear arms. If any thing it will make it more and more difficult to carry and keep arms. It suits them perfectly to have greatest control. Given the ever increasing gap between haves and have nots, do you really think it is in the interests of the privileged to arm the have nots? They are neither stupid nor illogical.

If guns are great equalizers for the oppressed, then why would the oppressor want to nullify his/her advantage. The fact is Governments rule by the power of the gun, yes even in a democracy and more so in a hollowed out democracy like ours. Behind almost every rule or law there is gun to enforce it. That is the gist. Think. “Power flows from the barrel of the gun”, and not just in the Maoist country but everywhere. Do the Governments want their poor and hungry to have this power? Can the Governments afford to have their deprived, hungry, bonafide citizens to have this equalizer?

Globally something is happening, something is churning, something is round the corner, the sensitive enough can feel it coming. The Governments all over the world want Gun Control. Something is making them either nervous or they are clearing landscape for something. The most disturbing is the United Nations' advocacy of Global Gun Ban. Why?

Consider this quote by James A. Donald, “The usual road to slavery is that they take away your guns, then they take away your property, then last of all they tell you to shut up and say you are enjoying it”. I sincerely hope this is not true, I truly hope we never face such a situation. But if we find out that we are indeed being forced by the Governments to follow the steps as quoted by James A. Donald then we don't have any other choice but to arm ourselves by any and every means and resist to the dying breath.

My humble suggestion to the NAGRI and Others who are pleading the Government for more gun rights is to take some direct action. We must ask and make aware every citizen in this great country to apply for a gun license. Let millions of applications storm the offices of the Licensing Authority and let them reject as many they want to; then take every rejected application to the honorable courts of India. Only a mass drive like this will enable us to empower the nation. If we are serious about the question of gun rights then sooner than later we must become more direct in our fight.

I hope that people will realize and understand what they are up against. I hope they will get together and resist every injustice that inhibits their well being. Sooner the better.

Regards...
"The greatest enemy will hide in the last place you look".
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby ribaalber » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:01 pm

Who are you and why do I agree with every word you wrote......?
Very very good thought, indeed.
"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms .... disarm only
those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....."
- Thomas Jefferson

Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general.
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby mundaire » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:13 pm

Very well written :clap: :clap:

Cheers!
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby Top-GUN » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:20 pm

and the same policy is followed by the ANTI INDIA Corrupted CONGRESS PARTY !!!

VOTE FOR BJP !!!
<<chidiya naal je baaj ladawan taan Gobind Singh naam dharavan>>
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby tiwariarrun » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:44 pm

VOTE FOR BJP !!!


No politics on IFG, please!
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby spin_drift » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:55 pm

lonetrigger wrote:
Personally I don't think Indian Government will ever ease the situation with respect to the Right to bear arms. If any thing it will make it more and more difficult to carry and keep arms. It suits them perfectly to have greatest control. Given the ever increasing gap between haves and have nots, do you really think it is in the interests of the privileged to arm the have nots? They are neither stupid nor illogical.



I agree with you completely... but as far as the above goes.. if we take the gloves off and take this issue main stream and raise a political sh*t storm then we can get a lot accomplished, secondly, the Indian civilian arms market is huge if not in billions of dollars then at least it should be in the upper hundreds of million of dollars p/a with significant prospect of growth annually.. If we can get some industrial consortium to join hands with us and get the government to open up the market and ease the situation....

and yes they are neither stupid nor illogical, but they do want to win the elections..
I believe in second chances… it’s called reloading
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby Katana » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:07 pm

LT,

Seems like a real burnin' fire in your throat. I could spar with you about the history bit but will let it go. The context here is rights to legal ownership of firearms.

As far as James Donald's quote goes, I could say that I have been through that. First, 'they' denied me my arms and then wanted to snatch my land and my livelihood. I have never fought so tenaciously in my life. In the end the authority realised they would be on the back foot if if they went ahead with it. So they let the matter rest.

Keep it coming, this could make a good debate.
Justice alone is the mainstay of government and the source of prosperity to the governed, injustice is the most pernicious of things; it saps the foundations of the government and brings ruin upon the realm - Sher Shah Sur, Sultan-ul-Adil.
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby xl_target » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:24 pm

Personally I don't think Indian Government will ever ease the situation with respect to the Right to bear arms. If any thing it will make it more and more difficult to carry and keep arms. It suits them perfectly to have greatest control. Given the ever increasing gap between haves and have nots, do you really think it is in the interests of the privileged to arm the have nots? They are neither stupid nor illogical.


You have spent a lot of time thinking about this, haven't you, Lonetrigger? The gist of your article is spot-on! I sense a little bit of the bitterness and the frustration that every Indian concerned with this issue feels.

You do realize that the only thing that will move a politician is the fear of not being re-elected. That is the one and only lever that we have. Most of us don't have the time, money or inclination to take this up with the judicial system. However, we are lucky that we live in a society where politicians are dependant on votes for their status.

Since there was, in India, no organization like the American NRA, NAGRI was created. It was hoped that large number of shooters and gun aficionados would band together under a common flag and with their numbers be able to exert political will. It is hoped that when NARGRI's membership gets large enough, it would be able to to be a force to recon with.


If we are serious about the question of gun rights then sooner than later we must become more direct in our fight.

So, let me ask you; have you joined NAGRI yet?
Last edited by xl_target on Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby prashantsingh » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:17 pm

Well written lonetrigger.Agree with most of the points you have mentioned.
Last edited by prashantsingh on Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby mundaire » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:47 pm

Gents, just a suggestion - lets not allow ourselves to digress from the substance of the RKBA related points put forth. The merits/ demerits or otherwise which are unrelated to the RKBA debate may be debated amongst yourselves via PM - what say?

Cheers!
Abhijeet
"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." -- Robert Heinlein

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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby goodboy_mentor » Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:47 am

Interesting post by lonetrigger that tries to reach the crux of the problem.
You do realize that the only thing that will move a politician is the fear of not being re-elected. That is the one and only lever that we have.
Since India is a complex country, the lever of getting votes is more connected to caste, community, language, region, religion affiliations than to the basic rights and freedoms of people. Since large swaths of population is mired in ignorance and poverty, it is not unusual to find the politicians to brainwash their electorate or openly procure votes by various means including monetary payments, alcohol, allurements of free goods like bicycles, laptops etc.

This is just my personal opinion, that rather can using the lever of vote route only, let another lever also be used simultaneously i.e. the judicial route since arms are guaranteed as fundamental rights under Articles 19 and 21 of the Constitution of India. Only some bold and honest judge in Supreme Court is needed to utter this fact. Rest of the things will gradually follow in due course.
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby dr.jayakumar » Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:42 am

reind,
iagree all your satements.
the whole problem is, if there is a terrorist attack,immidietly ther will be another law to haraas the legal gun owners instead of tackling the illegal gun suppliers and ilegal guns.one more thing even a civilian when denied of a licence is forced to agqaist everything and buy an illegal gun as they have no other option,.this is india which is still following the british law without any change.our baappus(bab00ns)nave no guts to refine and make the law less constipated.global dissarmanent will not happen as they are not fools like us.try them to disarm mujaideen,alkhaida,the civilians have more weaons then their army.not taking about fighter jets and tanks.
friend i have bee trying trying to file a writ to import gun so far not one lawyer is willing to take my case.
as long as as baboons are there,this topic will never come to an end.hope something like egyt happens here,
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby Hammerhead » Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:26 am

Repost but can't resist ... :




You are talking my friend - Haji
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby ruffian » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:48 am

Very nice post, Lonetrigger .
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby goodboy_mentor » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:49 pm

i have bee trying trying to file a writ to import gun so far not one lawyer is willing to take my case.
What is the reason given for refusing to take the case? Also there is no use in approaching just about any lawyer. Only the lawyer who is good at Constitutional Law and is aware that arms are fundamental right under Articles 19, and 21 and Arms Act 1959 is flowing from Articles 19 and 21 will only serve the purpose. Lawyers ignorant about this fact, in all likelihood will be hitting around the bush in the case, and result in wasting your time and money.

Before going to court straight away, it would be better to apply for import license with finance ministry, saying that since the firearms available in market are more than twenty years old and also sold at least four to five times the original price, and get a rejection for import license. Once you have a rejection in your hand, then you would be on better position to approach court and then vehemently protest in court that natural justice has been violated, your fundamental rights have been infringed etc. etc.. Otherwise court may ask that when there is already a provision to get an import license, why have you not followed it?
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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