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Unarmed INDIA

Discussions on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby Virendra S Rathore » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:25 pm

goodboy_mentor wrote:Before going to court straight away, it would be better to apply for import license with finance ministry, saying that since the firearms available in market are more than twenty years old and also sold at least four to five times the original price, and get a rejection for import license. Once you have a rejection in your hand, then you would be on better position to approach court and then vehemently protest in court that natural justice has been violated, your fundamental rights have been infringed etc. etc.. Otherwise court may ask that when there is already a provision to get an import license, why have you not followed it?

Words of wisdom. Thats a lawyer speaking !!
@dr.jayakumar I hope you'll do well in considering it doc :) Good luck with your chase.

Regards,
Virendra
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To Take my gun away for I might kill someone is just like cutting my throat for I might yell "Fire !!" in a crowded theatre ..
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby fantumfan2003 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:40 pm

Since our historical days, taking up and bearing arms was always there to protect against any form of external aggression. Its very likely that some smart alec amongst the britishers took note of this and came up with an arms act that made sure that we would never have this right in the future. The post independence constitution was in my view a hasty attempt to put a framework in place, there probably was an inclination, but no time to think original, so who better than the former masters to copy from.........and who cared about keeping arms ? imagine those days ? the euphoria of "kicking out" the brits was so strong that some must have thought arms are not needed now........but there was the question of so many arms already in possession of "loyalists" of the former raj, so probably something was cobbled up and called the arms act. But then again I may be wrong........

Today, the irony is that politicians move about with an umbrella of the best possible VIP protection, paid for by the taxpayers, the taxpayers who are themselves left vulnerable to be exploited by terrorists and organised criminals.
Mind you the law and order problems we have to live with are themselves a result of ill conceived and ill executed foreign and domestic policies by almost all governments of the past and present.

To ensure that the right politicians are voted to power is indeed a fine one, but politicians ensure they get elected, by wooing and enticing a certain section of the society, who has better priorities in life than dwelling on voting for the right politician.

It is indeed frustrating to see all this with an overwhelming sense of helplessness.......

M.




lonetrigger wrote:Unarmed India

I have come across a rather naive proclamation on this forum and on NAGRI that, “Turn the pages of our history and you will realize that India has always believed in providing arms to its bonafide citizens to protect themselves and their families. Arms were always a part of our culture, our rituals, and most importantly owning a firearm was always considered a mark of honor for the head of the family till the British came and changed everything overnight. They passed stringent laws to ensure that it was next to impossible for Indians to own Guns.... How could they allow civilians of a slave nation to own such potent tools of retaliation.” “Among the greatest injustices the British have done to India, to deny an entire nation of the right to own and keep arms will go down as its blackest”.

......
......

I hope that people will realize and understand what they are up against. I hope they will get together and resist every injustice that inhibits their well being. Sooner the better.

Regards...
As an example of overcoming adversity, Karoly Takacs has few peers. He was part of Hungary’s world champion pistol-shooting team in 1938, when an army grenade exploded, crippling his right hand. Ten years later, having taught himself to shoot with his left, he won two gold medals in the rapid-fire class.

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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby goodboy_mentor » Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:50 pm

Wherever British went they did this game of disarming the people. They tried it in America but failed because Americans were smarter and daring than the British as well as Indians, to recognize the dangerous implication of disarming the citizens, leading to large scale uprising called American War of Independence. Seeing Americans stand up for themselves, France also came in support of Americans. But the same game by the British succeeded in India, due to ignorance of people and powerful vested interests among them, who were hand in glove with the British.

Arms were explicitly guaranteed in the draft Constitution but the explicit guarantee was removed from final Constitution. But the acknowledgment of same guarantee still remains under Article 19(1)(b), Article 21, Article 51A(b),(c),(d),(i) and Article 246(5). But this is not apparent to a casual reader. And this is further aggravated by the fact as pointed out by lonetrigger that many of the people in this country have not inculcated the culture of keeping arms. Also complex nature of Indian society compounded by ignorance and poverty.
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby lonetrigger » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:01 am

The character of a person or a Nation is judged not by what he/she says they are, but it is judged by what they do or don't do. “Arms were explicitly guaranteed in the draft Constitution but the explicit guarantee was removed from final Constitution.” Why was it removed? Who removed it?

Barring the minuscule number of people the remaining vast majority cannot afford the culture of keeping arms legally. By exercising tight controls on imports and production and tighter controls on ownership by the License RAJ, the powers that be are guilty of creating deliberate scarcity. How can we charge-sheet the people of this country for not inculcating the culture of keeping arms? Don't we know how difficult it is to carry even a knife?

What the British did to disarm the people of India is at least understandable, they were protecting their rule against the local revolts, in other words, they were safeguarding their interests. But do we understand why the Indian Government that is “by the Indians, for the Indians, deprive its people basic self-protection? It has been more than 60 years since Independence, I think its time for us to stop blaming the British. We now have Arms Act of 1959 which in execution is as suffocating as its predecessor.

“Powerful vested interests who were hand in glove with the British”; Who were they? There were more than 500 princely states in the Indian sub-continent, how many of them were NOT loyal to the Raj? Were disloyal states allowed to co-exist? No. Should we think that the Major Business of Trade was carried out by the people who were against the Raj? Are we to believe that the British were so largehearted and magnanimous that they entertained such traders and businessmen who were plotting against them? No, Sir we are not discussing rare exceptions here.

“The White Man's Burden” to civilize us Barbarians was carried out by the Modern Education System backed by the arguments of Lord Macaulay. Was the political aim of this education system to educate the future Rulers/Masters or was it to train Loyal Clerks to assist the Raj in administering India? The entire mechanism of British Governance and that of dispensation of Justice in its colonies was aimed at protecting the British Rule, Rulers and their empire. Its aim was never the betterment of the colonized. (However, we cannot refute the unintended, benevolent side effects). What kind of people did this educational experiment produce?

In today's context, the most important factors that determine the electoral victory in India are the power of money and “the lever of getting votes is more connected to caste, community, language, region, religious affiliations”. Did any electoral candidate, anywhere in India had won or lost an election questioning, why the explicit fundamental right to Property was removed from the list of constitutionally guaranteed fundamental rights of the citizen of India? Why is 44th Amendment not discussed? Do we need to remind James A. Donald's warning?

Like they say, “follow the money” and we will uncover a lot.

Gentlemen, before you enjoy your Sunday, I would like to point out the one major difference between the American War of Independence and India's freedom struggle. Americans had WON the war, whereas Indians were GRANTED Independence. This is a phenomenal difference. Think about it. I would like to request you, if I may, to study the Atlantic Charter of 1941 and its connection to the events that happened in India in 1947. I am sure only then we will understand the real power equation.

If we relax ourselves into believing that the struggle for Gun Rights is a simple struggle, we will not gain anything. In fact my fear is that there is good chance of losing what little we have. Remember the Fate of Anna Hazare's crusade.

@ mundaire: Thank you for requesting the forum to keep this thread relevant to subject of RKBA.

@ Xl_target: I have sent my Application to NAGRI.

@ katana: You can spar with me over PM, only if you follow the rules of decent debate.

@ dr.jayakumar: You have observed a very important trend of policy making. I will surely want to discuss it in my next post.

@ gooboy_mentor: Thank you for the insights. I am very grateful


Regards....
"The greatest enemy will hide in the last place you look".
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby winnie_the_pooh » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:31 am

Goodboy,
Much as I would like to believe it,RKBA is not covered by any provision of the Constitution.

lonetrigger,

Very well written post.Thanks.Looking forward to your thoughts on why the section of society that had access to firearms at the time of independence remained silent when their guns were taken away by the 3 gun restriction.If you look at the debate on the amendment to introduce RKBA as a fundamental right in the proposed constitution,you would realise that the fellow who announced the rejection of this demand was considered to be a chamcha of our colonial master by many.
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences.
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby Virendra S Rathore » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:24 pm

lonetrigger wrote:Barring the minuscule number of people the remaining vast majority cannot afford the culture of keeping arms legally.

That will change if the IOF didn't have a free run monopoly of their seemingly shit quality stuff at compartively astrnomical prices. More competition and private players entry will lead to better quality and lower prices.
That will encourage availability and demand.

lonetrigger wrote:Indian Government that is “by the Indians, for the Indians, deprive its people basic self-protection? It has been more than 60 years since Independence, I think its time for us to stop blaming the British. We now have Arms Act of 1959 which in execution is as suffocating as its predecessor.

More than the law itself, I'd blame the implementation and the perhaps deliberate mis-interpretation of the law by the bureaucracy. How could the red tape leave a process as important as fire arm licensing? No they didn't. They ought to care for their deeper than ocean pockets.
For example - First they don't have a proper training cum evaluation program for the applicants and then later the same guys would bicker that there are accidents and undue shooting incidents. I see a quiet but devastating effort to demonize civilian arms ownership. And the citizenry i taking it lying down, sitting ducks.
Latest is that terror modules such as IM have started using robbery as source of income. So people, next time a robber stops by don't assume that he's just desperate .. not a seasoned and cold blooded killer.
http://m.timesofindia.com/PDATOI/articl ... 760360.cms
We are the hunted and the hunter just got deadlier

Just my 2 paise.
Regards,
Virendra
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby goodboy_mentor » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:28 pm

“Arms were explicitly guaranteed in the draft Constitution but the explicit guarantee was removed from final Constitution.” Why was it removed? Who removed it?
The real unofficial answer: Why was it removed? To create confusion. Who removed it? Corrupt and vested interests. And creating confusion is one of the best tactics used by the corrupt and vested interests in this country.
I would like to request you, if I may, to study the Atlantic Charter of 1941 and its connection to the events that happened in India in 1947. I am sure only then we will understand the real power equation.
Churchill had stated that the Atlantic Charter was only meant to apply to the States under German occupation and not to the States who formed part of the British Empire. Yes it is possible that yes men of the British were transferred power, there was not even grant of "independence" but creation of two "dominions" by the Independence of India Act 1947 passed by the British Parliament. It can be read at http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1947/pd ... 030_en.pdf The meaning of "dominions" is self explanatory. Surprising of all is that in order to fool the people, the politicians called 15 August 1947 as "independence" day!
Much as I would like to believe it,RKBA is not covered by any provision of the Constitution.
Well I would not like to get into a debate on this matter here, but would like to point to a recent Allahabad High Court decision which can be read at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15364#p147708 All that is needed is a knowledgeable judge in Supreme Court who can utter the truth that arms are acknowledged as fundamental right under Articles 19 and 21. I agree till then there will not be clarity but confusion.
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby essdee1972 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:22 pm

Lonetrigger, fantastic post, especially the history part! (although in the interests of the forum I am not going to elaborate on why and how I agree with you).

For the Brit-bashers, a bit of family history - my Grandfather's guns were not taken away by the Brits, even when his oldest son (my uncle - Tauji) was arrested, tried and convicted for sedition (i.e. fighting for freedom), terrorist acts (looting a army pay truck), and fortunately killing a army employee on duty (the guard of the said pay truck) was not proved, hence he escaped being hanged! These guns were finally confiscated by the Indian govt, when he was crossing the border post Partition. The Pakistani govt let him walk (or sail rather) out with his guns, the Indian govt stopped him, hence losing our family heirlooms!!!

EssDee
Cheers!

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In a polity, each citizen is to possess his own arms, which are not supplied or owned by the state.Aristotle

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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby spin_drift » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:24 pm

winnie_the_pooh wrote:If you look at the debate on the amendment to introduce RKBA as a fundamental right in the proposed constitution,you would realise that the fellow who announced the rejection of this demand was considered to be a chamcha of our colonial master by many.


Hey Winnie could we get some details about this? i googled on subject but count not find much information pertaining to RKBA in the draft constitution of india.
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby goodboy_mentor » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:51 pm

You may read the Constituent Assembly Debates at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1625&start=0#p8477

But these debates are irrelevant to decide if arms are guaranteed as fundamental right or not. Pay particular attention to the comment of Maulana Hasrat Mohani (United Provinces) in Constituent Assembly Debates when he says "If he wavers or raises any objection as I know he is capable of doing, as Dr. Ambedkar's legalabilities are established, and if he wishes, he can turn night into day and day into night" Indeed Dr. B.R. Ambedkar has turned night into day and day into night with his pen while writing this Constitution. Arms have been acknowledged in Constitution clearly but very cleverly. If one reads the Preamble, Article 19(1)(b), Article 21, Article 51A(b),(c),(d),(i) and Article 246(5) with a legal eye it becomes clear.

As far as question of "chamchas" of British is concerned, it is a well known fact they there were many who were hobnobbing with the British, to be in their good books so that power may get "transferred" to them.
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby mundaire » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:06 pm

spin_drift wrote:
winnie_the_pooh wrote:If you look at the debate on the amendment to introduce RKBA as a fundamental right in the proposed constitution,you would realise that the fellow who announced the rejection of this demand was considered to be a chamcha of our colonial master by many.


Hey Winnie could we get some details about this? i googled on subject but count not find much information pertaining to RKBA in the draft constitution of india.


Try viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1625 :)

Cheers!
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby spin_drift » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:26 pm

Goodboy_mentor and Abhijeet, thanks guys for the info
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby Hammerhead » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:30 pm

If the above " Facts and Figures " are correct , I'm sending some parts of it to some papers to print .

Edit :..... goodboy sir
I left the country long time and have not much familiarity of Indian constitution and all I know is Canadian Gun Laws and I write articles on guns (sometimes if publishers/paper allow)

Most of the above posts deserve to be post of month and good article writing material - Haji
Last edited by Hammerhead on Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby goodboy_mentor » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:41 pm

Would you please tell what you are trying to mean by "Facts and Figure"? Is it just these Constituent Assembly Debates? Help of Constituent Assembly Debates is usually taken when something is ambiguous. They don't prove anything in the written Constitution except the mindset and level of awareness or ignorance of the people in the Constituent Assembly.
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Unarmed INDIA

Postby shooter » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:15 pm

dear lonetrigger,

good post. well done.
One suggestion...... kataniji is a very learned gentlemen and you seem to have done your research too. I too would like to chip in with my 2 cents worth. people should have the benefit from learning from others knowledge and viewpoints. So why not have a public discussion. The only thing 'prohibiting' this is that your post is in the 'RKBA section.'

Why not repost it in the 'general ramblings' section so we can all put our views across.

re: the indian constitution-

I believe in my lawyer friends here when they say that the indian constitution gurantees RKBA but sadly im not a lawyer and neither are the licensing authorities and nowhere does it state clearly in the largest constitution in the world that indian citizens have the right to bear arms.

I mean look at the other rights. Clearly spelled out in black and white. Nowhere is it so slearly stated anything about RKBA. Its unfortunate that thouands of citizens have to go knock at the courts' doors to get a license in an already overburdened, bursting at the seams legal system.
You want more gun control? Use both hands!

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