How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Discussions on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
Rajat
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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Post by Rajat » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:03 pm

Commonwealth_of_PA wrote: It is wonderful to have this thread affirm there are Indians as well as Americans of Indian descent that will stand up to defend the weak against evil. I knew that long before I even signed up here but I never tire of seeing and hearing it. It's just one of those things that makes you feel good and proud every time :)
(y) It make us proud if you think so. Thanks!

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Commonwealth_of_PA
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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Post by Commonwealth_of_PA » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:04 pm

Oh, BTW. Since it came up, the thread title is a benign literary deception for the purpose of irony. It is worded as what would be typical of the anti-gun media dragging corpses to the soap box. I'm not bringing corpses.

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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Post by goodboy_mentor » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:06 pm

Commonwealth_of_PA wrote:Show me one widespread philosophy that has originated there other than harmony or defense of the weak.
Please refer the "divine" laws of Manu quoted below. They are nothing but apartheid, Nazism, injustice, oppression, racism, terrorism given the dress of "divine" laws. Education/ knowledge, property/ wealth, arms/ RKBA are three pillars of freedom or liberty. They are like three legs of three legged table. Destroy or subvert any one of them, the table falls. Similarly when you are controlling/ denying access to knowledge, wealth and arms by "divine" laws, you do not need to propound any fanatic philosophy to inflict direct oppression or tyranny. You have cleverly created oppression of the highest order in society, which very few will be able to understand.
Chapter I

91. One occupation only the lord prescribed to the Sudra, to serve meekly even these (other) three castes.


Chapter II

31. Let (the first part of) a Brahmana's name (denote something) auspicious, a Kshatriya's be connected with power, and a Vaisya's with wealth, but a Sudra's (express something) contemptible.

155. The seniority of Brahmanas is from (sacred) knowledge, that of Kshatriyas from valour, that of Vaisyas from wealth in grain (and other goods), but that of Sudras alone from age.


Chapter IV

81. For he who explains the sacred law (to a Sudra) or dictates to him a penance, will sink together with that (man) into the hell (called) Asamvrita.


Chapter V

140. Sudras who live according to the law, shall each month shave (their heads); their mode of purification (shall be) the same as that of Vaisyas, and their food the fragments of an Aryan's meal.


Chapter VIII

267. A Kshatriya, having defamed a Brahmana, shall be fined one hundred (panas); a Vaisya one hundred and fifty or two hundred; a Sudra shall suffer corporal punishment.

270. A once-born man (a Sudra), who insults a twice-born man with gross invective, shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin.

271. If he mentions the names and castes (gati) of the (twice-born) with contumely, an iron nail, ten fingers long, shall be thrust red-hot into his mouth.

272. If he arrogantly teaches Brahmanas their duty, the king shall cause hot oil to be poured into his mouth and into his ears.

277. A Vaisya and a Sudra must be punished exactly in the same manner according to their respective castes, but the tongue (of the Sudra) shall not be cut out; that is the decision.

278. Thus the rules for punishments (applicable to cases) of defamation have been truly declared; I will next propound the decision (of cases) of assault.

279. With whatever limb a man of a low caste does hurt to (a man of the three) highest (castes), even that limb shall be cut off; that is the teaching of Manu.

280. He who raises his hand or a stick, shall have his hand cut off; he who in anger kicks with his foot, shall have his foot cut off.

281. A low-caste man who tries to place himself on the same seat with a man of a high caste, shall be branded on his hip and be banished, or (the king) shall cause his buttock to be gashed.

282. If out of arrogance he spits (on a superior), the king shall cause both his lips to be cut off; if he urines (on him), the p*n*s; if he breaks wind (against him), the anus.

283. If he lays hold of the hair (of a superior), let the (king) unhesitatingly cut off his hands, likewise (if he takes him) by the feet, the beard, the neck, or the scrotum.

374. A Sudra who has intercourse with a woman of a twice-born caste (varna), guarded or unguarded, (shall be punished in the following manner): if she was unguarded, he loses the part (offending) and all his property; if she was guarded, everything (even his life).

375. (For intercourse with a guarded Brahmana a Vaisya shall forfeit all his property after imprisonment for a year; a Kshatriya shall be fined one thousand (panas) and be shaved with the urine (of an ass).

376. If a Vaisya or a Kshatriya has connexion with an unguarded Brahmana, let him fine the Vaisya five hundred (panas) and the Kshatriya one thousand.

377. But even these two, if they offend with a Brahmani (not only) guarded (but the wife of an eminent man), shall be punished like a Sudra or be burnt in a fire of dry grass.

378. A Brahmana who carnally knows a guarded Brahmani against her will, shall be fined one thousand (panas); but he shall be made to pay five hundred, if he had connexion with a willing one.

379. Tonsure (of the head) is ordained for a Brahmana (instead of) capital punishment; but (men of) other castes shall suffer capital punishment.

413. But a Sudra, whether bought or unbought, he may compel to do servile work; for he was created by the Self-existent (Svayambhu) to be the slave of a Brahmana.

414. A Sudra, though emancipated by his master, is not released from servitude; since that is innate in him, who can set him free from it?

415. There are slaves of seven kinds, (viz.) he who is made a captive under a standard, he who serves for his daily food, he who is born in the house, he who is bought and he who is given, he who is inherited from ancestors, and he who is enslaved by way of punishment.

416. A wife, a son, and a slave, these three are declared to have no property; the wealth which they earn is (acquired) for him to whom they belong.

417. A Brahmana may confidently seize the goods of (his) Sudra (slave); for, as that (slave) can have no property, his master may take his possessions.


Chapter IX

2. Day and night woman must be kept in dependence by the males (of) their (families), and, if they attach themselves to sensual enjoyments, they must be kept under one's control.

3. Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects (her) in youth, and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is never fit for independence.

92. A maiden who choses for herself, shall not take with her any ornaments, given by her father or her mother, or her brothers; if she carries them away, it will be theft.

155. The son of a Brahmana, a Kshatriya, and a Vaisya by a Sudra (wife) receives no share of the inheritance; whatever his father may give to him, that shall be his property.

225. Gamblers, dancers and singers, cruel men, men belonging to an heretical sect, those following forbidden occupations, and sellers of spirituous liquor, let him instantly banish from his town.

229. But a Kshatriya, a Vaisya, and a Sudra who are unable to pay a fine, shall discharge the debt by labour; a Brahmana shall pay it by installments.

230. On women, infants, men of disordered mind, the poor and the sick, the king shall inflict punishment with a whip, a cane, or a rope and the like.

237. For violating a Guru's bed, (the mark of) a female part shall be (impressed on the forehead with a hot iron); for drinking (the spirituous liquor called) Sura, the sign of a tavern; for stealing (the gold of a Brahmana), a dog's foot; for murdering a Brahmana, a headless corpse.

238. Excluded from all fellowship at meals, excluded from all sacrifices, excluded from instruction and from matrimonial alliances, abject and excluded from all religious duties, let them wander over (this) earth.

239. Such (persons) who have been branded with (indelible) marks must be cast off by their paternal and maternal relations, and receive neither compassion nor a salutation; that is the teaching of Manu.

248. But the king shall inflict on a base-born (Sudra), who intentionally gives pain to Brahmanas, various (kinds of) corporal punishment which cause terror.

253. By protecting those who live as (becomes) Aryans and by removing the thorns, kings, solely intent on guarding their subjects, reach heaven.

260. These and the like who show themselves openly, as well as others who walk in disguise (such as) non-Aryans who wear the marks of Aryans, he should know to be thorns (in the side of his people).

261. Having detected them by means of trustworthy persons, who, disguising themselves, (pretend) to follow the same occupations and by means of spies, wearing various disguises, he must cause them to be instigated (to commit offences), and bring them into his power.

262. Then having caused the crimes, which they committed by their several actions, to be proclaimed in accordance with the facts, the king shall duly punish them according to their strength and their crimes.

269. Those among them who do not come, and those who suspect the old (thieves employed by the king), the king shall attack by force and slay together with their friends, blood relations, and connexions.

276. But the king shall cut off the hands of those robbers who, breaking into houses, commit thefts at night, and cause them to be impaled on a pointed stake.

277. On the first conviction, let him cause two fingers of a cut-purse to be amputated; on the second, one hand and one foot; on the third, he shall suffer death.

278. Those who give (to thieves) fire, food, arms, or shelter, and receivers of stolen goods, the ruler shall punish like thieves.

279. Him who breaks (the dam of) a tank he shall slay (by drowning him) in water or by (some other) (mode of) capital punishment; or the offender may repair the (damage), but shall be made to pay the highest amercement.

280. Those who break into a (royal) storehouse, an armoury, or a temple, and those who steal elephants, horses, or chariots, he shall slay without hesitation.

288. Let him place all prisons near a high-road, where the suffering and disfigured offenders can be seen.

291. He who sells (for seed-corn that which is) not seed-corn, he who takes up seed (already sown), and he who destroys a boundary (-mark), shall be punished by mutilation.

292. But the king shall cause a goldsmith who behaves dishonestly, the most nocuous of all the thorns, to be cut to pieces with razors.


Chapter X

51. But the dwellings of Kandalas and Svapakas shall be outside the village, they must be made Apapatras, and their wealth (shall be) dogs and donkeys.

52. Their dress (shall be) the garments of the dead, (they shall eat) their food from broken dishes, black iron (shall be) their ornaments, and they must always wander from place to place.

53. A man who fulfils a religious duty, shall not seek intercourse with them; their transactions (shall be) among themselves, and their marriages with their equals.

54. Their food shall be given to them by others (than an Aryan giver) in a broken dish; at night they shall not walk about in villages and in towns.

55. By day they may go about for the purpose of their work, distinguished by marks at the king's command, and they shall carry out the corpses (of persons) who have no relatives; that is a settled rule.

56. By the king's order they shall always execute the criminals, in accordance with the law, and they shall take for themselves the clothes, the beds, and the ornaments of (such) criminals.

96. A man of low caste who through covetousness lives by the occupations of a higher one, the king shall deprive of his property and banish.

127. (Sudras) who are desirous to gain merit, and know (their) duty, commit no sin, but gain praise, if they imitate the practice of virtuous men without reciting sacred texts.

129. No collection of wealth must be made by a Sudra, even though he be able (to do it); for a Sudra who has acquired wealth, gives pain to Brahmanas.

104. He who has violated his Guru's bed, shall, after confessing his crime, extend himself on a heated iron bed, or embrace the red-hot image (of a woman); by dying he becomes pure;

105. Or, having himself cut off his organ and his testicles and having taken them in his joined hands, he may walk straight towards the region of Nirriti (the south-west), until he falls down (dead);


Chapter XI

132. Having killed a cat, an ichneumon, a blue jay, a frog, a dog, an iguana, an owl, or a crow, he shall perform the penance for the murder of a Sudra;
Source http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu.htm

This philosophy of subverting the three pillars of liberty mentioned earlier, has clandestinely been injected into the Constitution of India.

1. When the Constitution was adopted, it was publicly propagated(contrary to Constitutional facts) that RKBA has not been guaranteed. One pillar of liberty subverted, can move on to the next.

2. After few years, the right to property officially removed from list of fundamental rights of Constitution.

3. Education was/ is already heavily controlled by the State. This became a matter of concern to some concerned citizens, thus it was recently enumerated as fundamental right in the Constitution. It is more cosmetic effect than real.
timmy wrote:These actions purport to defend freedoms and individual liberties, yet there are many incidents of people's liberties that go unnoticed by the faction active in the linked articles -- this is the only issue they have responded to. They are quite selective in what issues they "protect" (if you even accept that they are a protection from "Chattanooga" acts, which I do not accept), and this, coupled with their "self appointed" mandate, does not give me any reason to view them as differing from any other self-appointed armed gang in America.
I see what you mean. Probably they have different political views than other Americans. Might be doing moral wrong but not legal wrong. So long they are not violating the law and exercising their 2nd Amendment Rights as individuals or group, they appear to be within their rights.
timmy wrote:This sort of behavior is relatively recent, under new laws passed in some states which guarantee open carry rights. I do not believe that the full impact of these laws has yet been realized. But again, this is beside the point: If you put it before the citizens of India today a referendum to allow or deny this sort of self-appointed behavior by any group wishing to act in this manner, do you suppose it would be approved?
I have not been able to understand the implicit logic or reasoning differentiating between open carry and conceal carry. When a person can be trusted with a gun, what difference does it make whether he is carrying it openly or concealed?

Since basic fundamental or human rights cannot not be matter of referendums or votes, that is why they have been written in Bill of Rights.
"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992

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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Post by xl_target » Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:21 am

I have not been able to understand the implicit logic or reasoning differentiating between open carry and conceal carry. When a person can be trusted with a gun, what difference does it make whether he is carrying it openly or concealed?
Except that some people are afraid when they see a gun.
They'd rather not know (kinda like the old ostrich with his head in the sand thing).
When the gun is carried concealed, they can't see it so it doesn't bother them.

In some states you cannot open carry and in some states, you can.
I don't have a dog in that fight. I don't carry openly but if someone wants to, I say more power to them.
No one looks twice at a cop who open carries but some people (even many gun guys) go ballistic when they see a permit holder open carrying.
It is hard for some people to wrap their heads around certain concepts.

There are also some people who just can't help but stick their nose into other people's business. I don't know why it bothers them what other people do but some of the most vehement opposition to open carry cames from "gun guys". That is regrettable. In the USA, there is a lot of lip service (among gun enthusiasts) about defending the 2nd Amendment but only as long as you are exercising your rights "their way".

Let me clarify that above statement.
I don't know anyone (gun people) personally who will chide an open carrier but you sure hear a lot of people who are against it, on gun forums.
“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

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