Re: New gun mantra- India Today Article on Arms Rules-2016
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:09 pm
Agreed. At least Airguns should be free from licensing !!! But writing too does no harm.
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No intending to divert the motive of this thread ,but Let us not delude our selves of this unarmed kitsch shall we ,we are all grown up here .Its not about political views , asserting the primacy of law and sovereignty of my country is not representing political views .We all may have a grouse ,which state doesn't ? I am seriously aggrieved at the gun laws and I have a right to it , look at the Mizo's after being bombed (have look at the article below )goodboy_mentor wrote:While you are entitled to your personal and political views but the legal facts remain whatever they are. Let us forget this matter for a moment, will any court of law in this country forgive you for firing on an unarmed person? Ask your self.jatindra Singh Deo wrote:"Unarmed Protestor " "Dispropertionate force " for the blood thirsty crowds living off state largese sounds exactly like the propaganda saying pellet guns are lethal weapons !
As said earlier all these are your personal and political views and have nothing to do with facts of law, justice or sovereignty. The law is very clear, it does not allow firing on unarmed persons and sovereignty is no license or justification to violate the law. But unfortunately that is what you are trying to justify.jatindra Singh Deo wrote:No intending to divert the motive of this thread ,but Let us not delude our selves of this unarmed kitsch shall we ,we are all grown up here .Its not about political views , asserting the primacy of law and sovereignty of my country is not representing political views .We all may have a grouse ,which state doesn't ? I am seriously aggrieved at the gun laws and I have a right to it , look at the Mizo's after being bombed (have look at the article below )goodboy_mentor wrote:While you are entitled to your personal and political views but the legal facts remain whatever they are. Let us forget this matter for a moment, will any court of law in this country forgive you for firing on an unarmed person? Ask your self.jatindra Singh Deo wrote:"Unarmed Protestor " "Dispropertionate force " for the blood thirsty crowds living off state largese sounds exactly like the propaganda saying pellet guns are lethal weapons !
And now if you talk of the famous and flimsy K grouse the answer is here :
Here goes your theory of unarmed poor civilians :
goodboy_mentor wrote:As said earlier all these are your personal and political views and have nothing to do with facts of law, justice or sovereignty. The law is very clear, it does not allow firing on unarmed persons and sovereignty is no license or justification to violate the law. But unfortunately that is what you are trying to justify.[/shadow]jatindra Singh Deo wrote:No intending to divert the motive of this thread ,but Let us not delude our selves of this unarmed kitsch shall we ,we are all grown up here .Its not about political views , asserting the primacy of law and sovereignty of my country is not representing political views .We all may have a grouse ,which state doesn't ? I am seriously aggrieved at the gun laws and I have a right to it , look at the Mizo's after being bombed (have look at the article below )goodboy_mentor wrote:While you are entitled to your personal and political views but the legal facts remain whatever they are. Let us forget this matter for a moment, will any court of law in this country forgive you for firing on an unarmed person? Ask your self.
And now if you talk of the famous and flimsy K grouse the answer is here :
Here goes your theory of unarmed poor civilians :
It appears that you are trying to justify your personal and political views by citing some political propaganda. Why I am calling it political propaganda? Because what is mentioned in those two links you have posted above, have nothing mentioned related to law points or justice. The first one is so pathetic and unreasonable that it implicitly justifies bombing of civilians by government and then talks of "peace" in that State. Indirectly it is trying to say that citizens of this country should be ready to be bombed by government and be happy and "peaceful" after these barbaric acts. If they demand their civil or political rights then it is a "grouse" against the State. What a pathetic argument. No law can justify bombing of civilians. Even "sovereignty" is no legal defense for bombing or killing civilians.
Then it goes on to say that there is "peace" in the States that once had insurgencies or rebellions. Is it the kind of "peace" that is found in the graveyards? What kind of "peace" is in those States is well known to the people of those States. Not very surprisingly these States now have abundant flow of drugs, alcohol, systematic destruction of local economies destroying local cultures, and causing linguistic, social and demographic engineering. For example Punjab has around 21 districts and has almost 41 distilleries and breweries. And estimated roughly around 5 million unemployed youth. So almost every district has almost two distilleries or breweries to "help" them live in "peace". All this is clearly against the Directive Principles of State Policy. Article 47 of Constitution of Indiaclearly mandating that State shall endeavour to bring about prohibition of the consumption except for medicinal purposes of intoxicating drinks and of drugs which are injurious to health. There are no prizes for guessing who are the masterminds and wise men behind all this never ending mess. And the ideas of these wise men are certainly changing the "course of history". Who can help prevent the change in "course of history" when such wise men are already there? Probably this Machiavellian formula of temporary and superficial "peace" has not or cannot work in Kashmir and hence their continuous "grouse".
The second link that purports to display a telegram appears a very clever but pathetic work of counterfeiting and politically motivated propaganda. The "telegram" is describing about the recent situation in Kashmir in a politically colored manner and urging by sarcastic imputation to Mr. Modi to do more of what is already being done. But the person who posted the picture of the "telegram" probably forgot that telegram services have been permanently shut down by the department of posts since July 2013 and Mr. Modi was not Prime Minister in 2013.
What a brilliant justification of a crime, just condemn it and forget it. Condemnation means nothing. Is condemnation enough and end of the story for any crime especially such serious crimes? Then we must scrap all the laws and justice system. Whenever any crime will happen, it will just be condemned verbally and the accused will be allowed to go free without any trial.This is a poor attempt at manipulation of facts and statements at hand to build a non existent counter narrative .The first posted material clearly condemns the Indian Govenments actions and particularly that of Indira Gandhi by comparing them to Cambodia-like near zero camps .And despite such condemnable actions of the past regime ,the amazing platform the Mizo have built for their future.
Well it is certainly obvious the creator of the "telegram" is trying to mislead the gullible and mask the truth by portraying it as a telegram in the first place. The hullaballu is certainly about firing bird shots at unarmed protestors to torture or maim them for life. The bird shot is for killing small birds. But when hit the humans, hundreds of pellets get embedded all over the body. It may become surgically next to impossible to remove all of them in one go and becomes a torture for life. If the bird shot hits the eyes, eyes get blinded. What is all this barbarity about? Under which law?Well isnt that obvious ? (Sic) Metaphors are powerfull tool of exposing calumny ,guess you missed it (sic).Wasn't the telegram a allegory to the
state of affairs over the kashmiri hullaballu ?
Glossing over nothing. For your information the insurgency in Punjab had absolutely nothing to do with "across the border". It was a political problem and it remains so. No insurgency in the world ever has anything to do with "across the borders". It is always a political problem within the borders which the State refuses to acknowledge with honesty. Read some authentic political history of the land of Punjab and not just political propaganda, then you will understand. Else you will keep on reiterating the political rhetoric.All this ignoring and glossing the vast wealth of history on the militancy in punjab and its origin in the abominable "land of peace" across our western borders
Fantastic "equivalence" just like the equivalence of bombing of civilians with resulting "peace". Any ways how is the "treatment" of minorities in India got to do with what kind of treatment minorities get in some other country? Isn't that the "internal matter" of that country just like many things are "internal matter" of our country? Or is it not? First decide which way you want to go.Well lets draw equivalence with the perpetrators across our western borders and how they treat the Balochs ,the sindhis ,pashtuns ,hazaras and
other minorities .And with the rest of our neighborhood who are constantly in the news for their (mis)treatment of minorities.
Source http://presscouncil.nic.in/OldWebsite/D ... n05/19.htm This secret letter to treat all the Sikhs as criminals is also part of Supreme Court and Parliamentary records. Was this a gift of independence they got as a matter of State Policy in 1947? What was their crime or "militancy" when a fresh new chapter was being started in history of this land? Were they a "problem" from "across the border"?“A man whose role in the identity crisis has not been fully highlighted was Kapur Singh ICS. He had been dismissed from service on charges of corruption. He tried to portray himself as a martyr. In a pamphlet he published he alleged that Prime Minister Nehru through Governor Chandu Lal Trivedi had issued a directive in 1947 to all the Commissioners in Punjab to the effect that the ‘Sikhs in general must be treated as a criminal tribe. Harsh treatment must be meted out to them to the extent of shooting them so that they wake up to political realities.’ He concluded: ‘Mughal King Bahadur Shah ordered followers of Nanak to be executed on sight. I, being a declared Sikh, fell victim to this Mughal firman.’.................... Kapur Singh in his book ‘Sachi-Sakhi’ has given details of charges, Law and facts involved. The book is available in the market. I suggest Khuswant Singh should go through it. However. It is admitted that such a directive was issued to all the D.C.s of Punjab by Home Secretary vide Policy letter of 10th October 1947. It is altogether different issue who issued the oral instructions, Jawahar Lal Nehru, Sardar Patel or Chandu Lal Trivedi. Similar instructions were sent by then C.M. of U.P. Mr. Sampurnanand in his letter and the fact was admitted in his letter of 29th August 1959 to the then Dy. Speaker of Lok Sabha Mr. Hukam Singh. It says, “Rai Sikhs, Jat Sikhs, Virk Sikhs and Kamboj Sikhs, who were classified as criminal tribes in the earstwhile Punjab. “(Robber noblemen by Joycee Pettigrew, p. 219). These tribes/castes constitute over 70% of the total Sikh population. Charges were inquired into by an English Judge of the Punjab High Court and he submitted his “Opinion” and not findings, on the basis of which he was dismissed. While Raghupati Kapur another ICS officer was reinstated into service. Are there two sets of rules for ICS officers? We have recently seen that when Indira Gandhi was Prime Minister George Fernadez was in fetters and handcuffed but when Morari Desai became Prime Minister he became Union Cabinet Minister. No law was changed but most unwanted person became most important person.
Source http://www.indiaspend.com/cover-story/h ... kely-60350The proportion of Sikh and Christian undertrials in Indian prisons is two times their proportion in the general population, according to the NCRB data.
As convicts, the proportion of Sikhs is three times their proportion in the general population and for Christians, it’s two times.
There is no official explanation for the higher relative proportion of Sikhs and Christians in jail. The highest number of Sikh undertrials is in Punjab, Haryana and Rajasthan, which account for 83% of all Sikh undertrials in the country.
Nobody is overlooking anything. There are serious questions that we need to ask ourselves. There are almost a million or more troops in Kashmir. How can a handful of insurgents drive out such a large population? What were the troops doing? Were they so incompetent or so afraid they did not take any action? What was the government doing? Was it a false flag operation to get political mileage in the media?Conviniently overlooking the rape ,murder and genocide of Kashmiri Pandits ,700000 of whom live in exile in their own home land !!
Very first step is unless the legal position is understood, nothing is going to happen. May read the following post viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24511&p=243291#p243291ashokpkl wrote:Can we stick to making .22 Airguns legal ?
goodboy_mentor wrote:It is well settled matter of law firing on unarmed persons and using disproportionate force is unlawful. Despite your attempts to divert the discussion and propagating your personal and political ideology, the legal facts remain what they are. Quoting some personal views of a soldier that matches yours and portraying them as "facts" is not going to change this. In any conflict both sides indulge in telling lies and try to pass them on as "facts". Basic principle of natural justice is audi alteram partem i.e. that both sides should be heard. Just presenting one side of the story is nothing but propaganda, which the links posted by you are exactly trying to do.
Even there are many judgments of Supreme Court related to this type of matter. Also Supreme Court has acknowledged security forces do indulge in deliberate killings of innocents. Certainly Supreme Court is not "eulogizing" anyone by acknowledging the facts and truth. Or maybe one day your political ideology will say Supreme Court is "eulogizing" or supporting a particular entity by speaking the truth. Good luck to such a political ideology and let us see in which direction it takes the Indian sub continent to. Genocides running into more than million dead conducted with help of security forces is a well documented fact and is in public domain on internet. You may read the following post viewtopic.php?f=13&t=24170#p240075 Security forces using civilians as human shields is also documented and in public domain on the internet.
What a brilliant justification of a crime, just condemn it and forget it. Condemnation means nothing. Is condemnation enough and end of the story for any crime especially such serious crimes? Then we must scrap all the laws and justice system. Whenever any crime will happen, it will just be condemned verbally and the accused will be allowed to go free without any trial.This is a poor attempt at manipulation of facts and statements at hand to build a non existent counter narrative .The first posted material clearly condemns the Indian Govenments actions and particularly that of Indira Gandhi by comparing them to Cambodia-like near zero camps .And despite such condemnable actions of the past regime ,the amazing platform the Mizo have built for their future.Well it is certainly obvious the creator of the "telegram" is trying to mislead the gullible and mask the truth by portraying it as a telegram in the first place. The hullaballu is certainly about firing bird shots at unarmed protestors to torture or maim them for life. The bird shot is for killing small birds. But when hit the humans, hundreds of pellets get embedded all over the body. It may become surgically next to impossible to remove all of them in one go and becomes a torture for life. If the bird shot hits the eyes, eyes get blinded. What is all this barbarity about? Under which law?Well isnt that obvious ? (Sic) Metaphors are powerfull tool of exposing calumny ,guess you missed it (sic).Wasn't the telegram a allegory to the
state of affairs over the kashmiri hullaballu ?Glossing over nothing. For your information the insurgency in Punjab had absolutely nothing to do with "across the border". It was a political problem and it remains so. No insurgency in the world ever has anything to do with "across the borders". It is always a political problem within the borders which the State refuses to acknowledge with honesty. Read some authentic political history of the land of Punjab and not just political propaganda, then you will understand. Else you will keep on reiterating the political rhetoric.All this ignoring and glossing the vast wealth of history on the militancy in punjab and its origin in the abominable "land of peace" across our western bordersFantastic "equivalence" just like the equivalence of bombing of civilians with resulting "peace". Any ways how is the "treatment" of minorities in India got to do with what kind of treatment minorities get in some other country? Isn't that the "internal matter" of that country just like many things are "internal matter" of our country? Or is it not? First decide which way you want to go.Well lets draw equivalence with the perpetrators across our western borders and how they treat the Balochs ,the sindhis ,pashtuns ,hazaras and
other minorities .And with the rest of our neighborhood who are constantly in the news for their (mis)treatment of minorities.Source http://presscouncil.nic.in/OldWebsite/D ... n05/19.htm This secret letter to treat all the Sikhs as criminals is also part of Supreme Court and Parliamentary records. Was this a gift of independence they got as a matter of State Policy in 1947? What was their crime or "militancy" when a fresh new chapter was being started in history of this land? Were they a "problem" from "across the border"?“A man whose role in the identity crisis has not been fully highlighted was Kapur Singh ICS. He had been dismissed from service on charges of corruption. He tried to portray himself as a martyr. In a pamphlet he published he alleged that Prime Minister Nehru through Governor Chandu Lal Trivedi had issued a directive in 1947 to all the Commissioners in Punjab to the effect that the ‘Sikhs in general must be treated as a criminal tribe. Harsh treatment must be meted out to them to the extent of shooting them so that they wake up to political realities.’ He concluded: ‘Mughal King Bahadur Shah ordered followers of Nanak to be executed on sight. I, being a declared Sikh, fell victim to this Mughal firman.’.................... Kapur Singh in his book ‘Sachi-Sakhi’ has given details of charges, Law and facts involved. The book is available in the market. I suggest Khuswant Singh should go through it. However. It is admitted that such a directive was issued to all the D.C.s of Punjab by Home Secretary vide Policy letter of 10th October 1947. It is altogether different issue who issued the oral instructions, Jawahar Lal Nehru, Sardar Patel or Chandu Lal Trivedi. Similar instructions were sent by then C.M. of U.P. Mr. Sampurnanand in his letter and the fact was admitted in his letter of 29th August 1959 to the then Dy. Speaker of Lok Sabha Mr. Hukam Singh. It says, “Rai Sikhs, Jat Sikhs, Virk Sikhs and Kamboj Sikhs, who were classified as criminal tribes in the earstwhile Punjab. “(Robber noblemen by Joycee Pettigrew, p. 219). These tribes/castes constitute over 70% of the total Sikh population. Charges were inquired into by an English Judge of the Punjab High Court and he submitted his “Opinion” and not findings, on the basis of which he was dismissed. While Raghupati Kapur another ICS officer was reinstated into service. Are there two sets of rules for ICS officers? We have recently seen that when Indira Gandhi was Prime Minister George Fernadez was in fetters and handcuffed but when Morari Desai became Prime Minister he became Union Cabinet Minister. No law was changed but most unwanted person became most important person.
Not inconsistent with the policy that is clearly manifest in the letter mentioned above, the way the treatment of minorities in India is pathetic. If bombing them, subjecting them to genocides running over million is nice treatment as per your understanding, I have nothing to say because your political ideology vis a vis minorities is self evident. Thank you so much for your political rhetoric!
Facts speak for themselves below -Source http://www.indiaspend.com/cover-story/h ... kely-60350The proportion of Sikh and Christian undertrials in Indian prisons is two times their proportion in the general population, according to the NCRB data.
As convicts, the proportion of Sikhs is three times their proportion in the general population and for Christians, it’s two times.
There is no official explanation for the higher relative proportion of Sikhs and Christians in jail. The highest number of Sikh undertrials is in Punjab, Haryana and Rajasthan, which account for 83% of all Sikh undertrials in the country.Nobody is overlooking anything. There are serious questions that we need to ask ourselves. There are almost a million or more troops in Kashmir. How can a handful of insurgents drive out such a large population? What were the troops doing? Were they so incompetent or so afraid they did not take any action? What was the government doing? Was it a false flag operation to get political mileage in the media?Conviniently overlooking the rape ,murder and genocide of Kashmiri Pandits ,700000 of whom live in exile in their own home land !!
What about the rape, murder and genocide of minorities in their homeland or it is not their homeland?
It is only in your make believe world that makes you believe the fact of firing on unarmed civilians is not use of disproportionate force and not unlawful. The position of law remains the same and remains un "countered". To get more idea of the legal position read the (Retd.) Supreme Court Justice Katju Commission Report available here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8812&p=243496#p243496jatindra Singh Deo wrote:Okay professor Moriarty I have been seeing and observing your inclinations for some time now .After the very basic premise of your theory as been countered "unarmed civilians". You stick to the House of Cards that you have been building for some time now .
Lets put your THEORIES to the theory of deduction and see what you are trying to do :
1. India is a state deep into Balkanization and some serious belief into the concept .