LETS GO TO HIGH COURT TOGETHER , FOR ARMS IMPORT !

[sudhirkh]

LETS GO TO HIGH COURT TOGETHER !

Its been long we are discussing about going to high and challenge the union govt. , but till today I never heard someone went to High Court or no one had posted if the PIL is filed.

HOW MANY OF YOU ARE INTERESTED TO FILE PIL WITH ME, AND CAN YOU SHARE EXPENSES FOR THE SAME, I THINK IT WILL BE GAMBLING BUT THIS IS THE ONLY WAY.

[Skyman]

I am sure the forum is behind you my friend.I with it.However, unless votes are involved, i doubt this will happen.The case will simply drag on.You are welcome to try.

[renjith747]

First of all i appreciate your thoughts and ideas. It is better to file a PIL if we are thinking that some day government will change the import policy.The main problem with this is firstly co-ordination,Money & legal support.The PIL will be a success if we get all these three things in right direction & in right time.There should be a executive committee to coordinate all the process and people with legal knowledge in this forum have to work together with them.Now a a member of rifle club can import .177 cal air rifle\pistols for the purpose of target shooting.Like that PIL should be given to allow imports for shooting sports for members of the rifle club(weapons in .22,.32 and .3006 & shotgun).It will have a high success rate other than filing a PIL to give right to import firearms for licensed people.Government cannot deny if it is required for shooting sports, otherwise they will denied in the court telling that crime rate will increase,it will cause security threat and blah blah blahs.Dont give any loop hole for the government to defend our case.

Regards
Renjith

[goodboy_mentor]

Its been long we are discussing about going to high and challenge the union govt. , but till today I never heard someone went to High Court or no one had posted if the PIL is filed.

Related matter was taken up with Supreme Court and the case was lost in Anirudh Singh Katoch vs Union Of India & Ors. on 5 May, 2010. It can be read here http://indiankanoon.org/doc/291972/

Therefore the matter has to taken up in watertight manner and same mistakes not committed as in the above case.

HOW MANY OF YOU ARE INTERESTED TO FILE PIL WITH ME, AND CAN YOU SHARE EXPENSES FOR THE SAME, I THINK IT WILL BE GAMBLING BUT THIS IS THE ONLY WAY.

I do not think it is gambling if the matter is taken up in a proper way.

Instead of going to lawyers, are you willing to file a writ yourself in High Court as "party in person"? It won't cost you lawyer fees. It will cost you only the court fees and your time. There are many people who have successfully fought their own cases.

If answer to the above question is yes, then what is your reasoning and logic to demolish the government's import restriction policy in court? In other words what is your reasoning to convince the court in your favor? Think of maximum reasons and legal points so that if some are dismissed by court, there are still more points in your support.

Government cannot deny if it is required for shooting sports, otherwise they will denied in the court telling that crime rate will increase,it will cause security threat and blah blah blahs.

Personally I am against making this merely a "sports" thing. Nonsense of the government has to be confronted. If government says import of firearms by arms license holders will increase crime then it is a very absurd and baseless reason. Arms licenses are issued only after following the due process of law. Arms license holder is anyways going to buy a firearm. Instead of locally manufactured firearm, how will an imported firearm in hands of an arms license holder increase crime or cause security threat?

[renjith747]

Instead of locally manufactured firearm, how will an imported firearm in hands of an arms license holder increase crime or cause security threat?

It is not true if we think in a rational manner but they can defend by this point as always by saying if import is allowed to all civilians on behalf of their valid gun license many people will purchase imported firearms and get into gun culture like in US.I think this is why IOF is creating a huge gap between demand and supply in the case of civilian firearms.People have to wait months to get their order and if they get their much awaited order the weapon may come partially damaged with broken stock,faulty magazines etc.They are not giving much importance to the quality for the civilian firearms, why is this so???.All the base is anti gun policy of the government.Government is not ready to give civilians quality standard firearms,they fear that people will cause threat to the nation if they get so

[spin_drift]

I think the best option would be to do some RTIs for example: How many firearms that were legally imported (by license holders) were used for criminal activity and for or terrorism etc...
the idea would be to figure out what arguments the government may come up with and do RTIs to get data on those arguments...

[spin_drift]

.All the base is anti gun policy of the government.

Portraying this as an anti gun policy of the gov would not have the desired effect... instead if you manage to portray the policy in question as anti Constitution you would have a significantly high chance of success.

[goodboy_mentor]

It is not true if we think in a rational manner but they can defend by this point as always by saying if import is allowed to all civilians on behalf of their valid gun license many people will purchase imported firearms and get into gun culture like in US.

Arms are Fundamental Right under Articles 19 and 21, and Constitutional Right under Article 300A. Thus every citizen has the right to purchase firearms by following the due process of law under Arms Act 1959. If they say what you are saying above then it means they do not want the citizens to enjoy their fundamental rights or they want to subvert the provisions of Arms Act 1959 by restricting imports. Thus they cannot say the above officially.

I think this is why IOF is creating a huge gap between demand and supply in the case of civilian firearms.People have to wait months to get their order and if they get their much awaited order the weapon may come partially damaged with broken stock,faulty magazines etc.

This is what you and me understand is the hidden or unspoken game of government. But government cannot say this officially that they are subverting the rights of people by playing games.

They are not giving much importance to the quality for the civilian firearms, why is this so???.

Because no competition and import restrictions. Thus no incentive or challenge to improve the quality or innovate.

[spin_drift]

, and Constitutional Right under Article 300A.

Could you please elaborate? As far as i know Article 300A mostly deals with immovable property, right?

[goodboy_mentor]

Whenever rights are interpreted, they are interpreted in the widest possible manner. Article 300A covers all kinds of property including movable, immovable, intellectual property etc. Property is also a human right under Article 21. Since property(arms are also property) is a human right under Article 21 and constitutional right under Article 300A, Section 14(2) of Arms Act 1959 prohibits refusing to issue arms license merely on the ground that person does not own or possess sufficient property.

[nagarifle]

i agree with GBM, a proper case done before going to court. aslo one should think about it doing chit chat via pm etc, as this thread is open to all unwanted kind of antis

[boris]

Instead of locally manufactured firearm, how will an imported firearm in hands of an arms license holder increase crime or cause security threat?

It is not true if we think in a rational manner but they can defend by this point as always by saying if import is allowed to all civilians on behalf of their valid gun license many people will purchase imported firearms and get into gun culture like in US.I think this is why IOF is creating a huge gap between demand and supply in the case of civilian firearms.People have to wait months to get their order and if they get their much awaited order the weapon may come partially damaged with broken stock,faulty magazines etc.They are not giving much importance to the quality for the civilian firearms, why is this so???.All the base is anti gun policy of the government.Government is not ready to give civilians quality standard firearms,they fear that people will cause threat to the nation if they get so

If the Govt. raises the point of US gun culture,then that would be the biggest BS I would ever hear.Even if the Govt. removes the restriction on import of Arms and Ammo,then:

-The PB/NPB rule will still stay this removes me being able to buy stuff in 9mm,.45 ACP as far as handguns go.

-The only bolt action rifles rule restricts me from buying .22 LR,6.5,6.8mm versions of semi-auto rifles based on the AR platform.

-The rifles I may be able to buy would be in .30-06,.300 Win Mag,7mm Magnum,.416 etc.Now how can I do a theater shootout with a precision bolt action rifle.Makes no sense,right?

-Then there is the great 50 rounds at one time rule,with that I have only 3 magazines worth of handgun ammo(say I have 15 round mags) .In the US civilians own thousands of rounds.Big disparity.

-The amazing 3 guns rule,hard to believe that will lead to gun culture like the US where I have seen guys owning like 2-3 cupboards full of guns and ammo.Numbers are still in our favor.

-It is a pain to get a license for any citizen.If less licenses are issued still there won't be too many guns.

-IOF creates that big gap because it has to supply crappy arms and ammo to regular army,paramilitary units and police.Those order earn them more cash in a year than they'd make in 15 years selling their civilian arms.I did mention the few licenses issued every year so when the demand from one side is huge and has to be met why care about the civilians.

So I do agree with you that the Govt. does not want to relax arms laws.I still find it funny when Paki sponsored terrorists attacked Mumbai,the govt. instead tightened civilian gun laws,there was no correlation there to have taken such a step.Secondly a few of us pro-gun folks doesn't mean most civilians are pro-gun ,many many citizens are anti-guns,police and army too are anti-gun to the extent that many say that civilians should not be owning any sort of firearms in the first place.The latest shootouts in the US has made the case even worse,many Indians blamed US gun culture not the fact that the shooter was/is a psycho.

[renjith747]

i agree with GBM, a proper case done before going to court. aslo one should think about it doing chit chat via pm etc, as this thread is open to all unwanted kind of antis

-

The only bolt action rifles rule restricts me from buying .22 LR,6.5,6.8mm versions of semi-auto rifles based on the AR platform.The rifles I may be able to buy would be in .30-06,.300 Win Mag,7mm Magnum,.416 etc.Now how can I do a theater shootout with a precision bolt action rifle.Makes no sense,right?

You can have a semi-auto like ruger 10/22 if you are a registered shooter of a rifle club in india.

Then there is the great 50 rounds at one time rule,with that I have only 3 magazines worth of handgun ammo(say I have 15 round mags) .In the US civilians own thousands of rounds.Big disparity.

In the case of limited ammo what will you do if you had only an ambassador car in gulf where petrol is cheaper than drinking water.We should need a quality product first, then ammo comes second.Even in the current situation some of our members are using revolvers having an astronomical value of 6.5 lakh rs.They are not at all bothered about ammo quantity.The first preference for them is a quality firearm as far as i know.

We do have our own rights as well as duties like all other fellow citizen.It can be explained as
Fundamental Rights' is a charter of rights contained in the Constitution of India. It guarantees civil liberties such that all Indians can lead their lives in peace and harmony as citizens of India. These include individual rights common to most liberal democracies, such as equality before law, freedom of speech and expression, freedom of association and peaceful assembly, freedom to practice religion, and the right to constitutional remedies for the protection of civil rights by means of writs such as habeas corpus. Violation of these rights result in punishments as prescribed in the Indian Penal Code, subject to discretion of the judiciary. The Fundamental Rights are defined as basic human freedoms which every Indian citizen has the right to enjoy for a proper and harmonious development of personality. These rights universally apply to all citizens, irrespective of race, place of birth, religion, caste, creed, color or Gender. They are enforceable by the courts, subject to certain restrictions. The Rights have their origins in many sources, including England's Bill of Rights, the United States Bill of Rights and France's Declaration of the Rights of Man.

The import of fire arms should also be allowed for law abiding citizens having licensed firearms.Here shooters who is not a renowned shot have to depend entirely on the weapons of rifle club, they dont get weapons exclusive for them to practice.Settings of firearms are different for different people and it is a great loss of time and skill is required for resetting the firearm if a shooter wants to practice after another shooter.In the shooting range itself we get more time if upcoming shooters have their own weapon for practice.Every citizen have same right like what renowned shots have so weapons for target practice should be made easily available. even for normal civilians.

It is a pain to get a license for any citizen.If less licenses are issued still there won't be too many guns.

I believe that by the help of National Association for Gun Rights India (NAGRI) the policies of the government will change if we stand together.Many applications for licenses of law abiding citizens are being rejected by licensing authority now by notifying various circular/orders of MHA.

Secondly a few of us pro-gun folks doesn't mean most civilians are pro-gun ,many many citizens are anti-guns,police and army too are anti-gun to the extent that many say that civilians should not be owning any sort of firearms in the first place.

Most of the people are raised from childhood by parents saying that gun is a dangerous thing, What is the need of a gun? , are you going to be a naxal or terrorist??It would be one of the reasons that civilians in India are becoming antiguns.Fear about guns ie Hoplophobia is defined as the "fear of weapons" and as the "fear of armed citizens" is created in the mind from the childhood itself by parents.But US gun culture is different there kids are raised by hearing the stories of hunting in the woods, practicing target practice in weekends etc which is entirely different from Indian scenario.

The gun dealers in India is also dont like to open the import channel.If import channel is opened to ordinary civilians how will they do day time robbery?.They are investing their lakhs in buying old imported firearms and if one day import is open the weapons they had in their hand will take rust & finally go to rest in peace.

But the main question is who will bell the cat?


Regards
Renjith

[dr.jayakumar]

count me in.
dr.jk

[nagarifle]

gents the Constitution of India artical 21 states" all persons " this means citizen and non-citizen of India. so please use the correct terminology, as some rights are given to Citizens only and some to all persons, including the man from the moon.

otherwise one will read it a citizen and will say that does not apply to me, and withdrew support.

if you want to go to court get your words right from the start. and do not go the babu way of misinformation change of words etc.