Sikh armaments (historical)

[dsingh]

If goverment cannot lift the ban on import then atleast it should allow private manufacturers to manufature handguns and rifles on the pattern of permission being granted to manufaterers of shotguns.We in india have some tribals like sikligars who r known for their skills in making of arms.Even britishers were fasinated by their skills when they occupied punjab in 1849 as some of artililary , muskets , and pistols manufatured by them were far superior to their weapons. And if such permission is given by indian goverment it will help in tapping the talent these skillful people and ordance factories will refrain from selling their junk stuff and most important these will help in economic liftment of these people as despite their skills they r living extreme poverty.

[penpusher]

DSingh,

There was nothing 'superior' abou the guns of the Punjab army/Ranjeet Singh's army.They were merely copies of the guns( generally pieces of artillery)the EIC gifted the Maharaja from time to time.

penpusher

[dsingh]

Dear brother penpusher, Ordance factories at wah near Lahore and at Taxiala was set up by french generals of maha raja Ranjit singh in Lahore itself ordance were under expertise of skilled sikligars u can go through the acconts of ANLO-SIKH WARS where the commanders of british forces themselves admitted the quality of Punjab weapons were much better EIO GIFTED SMALL NO OF LIGHT ARTILERY one such example of Punjab quality of good arms IS ZAMZAM HEAVY GUN OF 52 POUNDERS . Futher none of European guns could fire more than 8 km. u can go through historical accounts of Sir gough C IN C in punjab battles.Please do not mind I JUST WANT to correct u.

[penpusher]

DSingh,
I have gone throught the accounts of the Anglo-Sikh wars.Did an MA in Modern Indian History.Had a seperate paper on Punjab History.Somehow managed to get the max. score in Modern Indian History in the University and was third overall in the merit list.

So now that my credentials as a student of history and particularly of the period that you are referring to, are established ( I hope), let me say a couple of things.

The famous zamzama top/bhangian- dee- top(canon) that you are refering to was not cast in Punjab but formed a part of the army of Abdali's son, who managed to lose it in on the way back to Afghanistan.It was in fact cast for Ahmed Shah Abdali.

The battle of Gujerat which ended the Anglo-Sikh wars,was infact a battle of guns,in which the short on range British guns pounded the sikh positions and silenced their guns before the cavalry and infantry charge decimated the sikh army.

As far as Sir Gough goes,his inapptitude as a militery commander,was amply demonstrated in the battle preceding the battle of Gujerat and you can not but expect a person in his situation to try to shift the blame elsewhere.Like the guns with the EIC troops being short of range as compared to the sikh guns.He was to be replaced as a result of the near disaster at Chillianwala with Napier,and only the victory at Gujerat (a foregone conclusion that even the sikhs were aware off ,as they tried to sue for peace after Chillianwala)saved his honor.

I am waiting to be corrected.

penpusher

[major deepak]

i'm inclined 2 agree with mr penpusher as i'm also an avid reader of history(specially sikh,'cause i happen 2 be one) and have read three different authors who r of the same opinion.

[dev]

Hardly challenging for you penpusher but there always are a few Don Quixotes waiting to tilt facts.
I did history till high school and then went on to do Lit. History course was miles longer than the lit one.
Regards,

Dev

DSingh,
I have gone throught the accounts of the Anglo-Sikh wars.Did an MA in Modern Indian History.Had a seperate paper on Punjab History.Somehow managed to get the max. score in Modern Indian History in the University and was third overall in the merit list.

So now that my credentials as a student of history and particularly of the period that you are referring to, are established ( I hope), let me say a couple of things.

The famous zamzama top/bhangian- dee- top(canon) that you are refering to was not cast in Punjab but formed a part of the army of Abdali's son, who managed to lose it in on the way back to Afghanistan.It was in fact cast for Ahmed Shah Abdali.

The battle of Gujerat which ended the Anglo-Sikh wars,was infact a battle of guns,in which the short on range British guns pounded the sikh positions and silenced their guns before the cavalry and infantry charge decimated the sikh army.

As far as Sir Gough goes,his inapptitude as a militery commander,was amply demonstrated in the battle preceding the battle of Gujerat and you can not but expect a person in his situation to try to shift the blame elsewhere.Like the guns with the EIC troops being short of range as compared to the sikh guns.He was to be replaced as a result of the near disaster at Chillianwala with Napier,and only the victory at Gujerat (a foregone conclusion that even the sikhs were aware off ,as they tried to sue for peace after Chillianwala)saved his honor.

I am waiting to be corrected.

penpusher

[dsingh]

I agree penpusher singh ji, ZAMZAMA gun was a product of AFGHANS but it is not only the accounts of GOUGH but SIR AUCKLAND who was the best army commander ar that time and was sent to replace the GOUGH before battle of GUJARAT one of biggest battle ever in 19th century solely with heavy guns .sister of AUCKLAND SPENT largest no of years in PUNJAB and LORD AUCKLAND C IN C of british troops and LORD NAPIER visited the PUNJAB and inspected some weapons and commented that arms of sikh forces are far superior to us and sister of Auckland, the LADY AUCKLAND has same comments about the small arms like matchlocks, pistols and smaller muskets converted into carbines some of arms are part of BRITISH ARMED FORCES MUSEUM.EVEN SOME OF 23 POUNDERS, 10 POUNDERS are still preserved by britishers even today another surprise weapon was a CYLIDER type projectiles 11 in number 8 were used in guns .You can go through reaseach reports by MILATATRY EXPERTS I donot remmber the author but these books along with pics of arms are available in CENTRAL LIBRARY OF CHANDIGARH

[dsingh]

SORRY i want to correct it was napier and he also comments about the arms of sikhs and defection of chief of sikh artiliary ILLAHI BAKH leaked out shortage of amno for sikh guns to the british just before the battle of gujarat . As my forefathers participated in ANGLO SIKH WARS againist the british forces I have very indepth details of battles in history all battles are not recorded just in2005 the british goverment are relasing papers from swiss bank lockers about undisclosed details about the anglosikh wars. Some of weapons of 19th century were with our family in west punjab but during riots in1947 these priceless it were lost.

[Sakobav]

Dsingh

Lets look at facts especially on eve of 1857 War of Independence anniversary – All of the anglo sikh wars were the repeat of Battle of Plassey there were enough Khalsa Army Generals who defected or were in league with EIC. Battery of best guns and ammo in world couldn’t have saved the day in the end it was unity and famous ethos self over the country or bigger cause which was the main reason. Even Ranjit Singh himself stated the epiphany “ Sub lal ho jayega’ more or less red coats shall rule the entire land. Lets not discuss about Sikh unity and demise of Sikh Confederacy.

It wasn’t Illahi Baksh alone who caused the debacle , what about of other esteemed Sikh Arty general Lehna Singh Majithia who opted for tirath or pilgrimage to Varanasi. Now that’s quite a distance even by todays standards. This is what Jangnama the epic requiem for Anglo Sikh wars by Shah Muhammad states : "Lehna Singh Sardar Majithia is Wada aqal da kot kamal mian. Shah Mohammad tur gaya tirthan nu, Sabhe chhad ke dang dawal mian" (S. Lehna Singh Majithia though was a very intelligent person, but leaving the Darbar disputes, himself went away on pilgrimage). He was father of Dayal Singh Majithia founder of The Tribune newspaper and Philanthropist.

Nevertheless Lehna Singh was more of an engineer and quote “ All this shows the technical and artistic expertise of experts working in the Sikh foundries and workshops. The barrel, produced in Lahore in 1838, is based on the British Light 6 pounder, while the carriage takes its idea from the Bengal artillery pattern introduced in 1823”
So these were copy of EIC guns as stated by penpusher.

I cannot locate a book ( its in my storage) which has breakdown of Ranjit Singhs forces and it did mention standardization of guns was an issue.

Why would British deposit their papers in Swiss bank when they have India office records http://www.bl.uk/collections/orientaloffice.html

I hope you are not confusing the above with Princess Catherine Duleep Singhs Swiss locker which had nothing of any value there.

Many of us can claim and trace our ancestors back to that army but remember all that information passed down is a biased opinion. Similarly material we read in books depends upon who wrote it. One has to study all the narratives and then make logical conclusions.


For facts compare notes from books with references which is same as writing paper for which one has to be a student of say history.

By the way I am related to 5th Gen Gunners who trace back their lineage to the same army, so I have heard a tale or two but as they say History: gossip well told.

Best

[dsingh]

sorry for discussing history Abhijeet , N GREWAL sir britishers did advertise the SWISS BANK details OF hidden secrets ABOUT THE ANGLO-SIKH WARS ASKED BOTH INDIA OR PAKISTAN to take it unfortunatly none came forward this was reported by HINDUSTAN TIMES EDITION of 2005 this issue was discussed by some groups with me AS ALEGAL PROFESSIONAL i gave them advise but all these people backed out.Sir several battles have not been recorded for example SOHANA battle near chandigarh 5 kms from SAS NAGAR WHERE A GURDWARA STANDS IN MEMORY OF 500 NIHANGS DIED IN BATTLE THERE AND SOME OF THE WEAPONS R PRESERVED THERE.ITwas in 1842 just before battle of SABROAN.And another battle near west pakistan is not recorded Duke Of Wellington who was 80 years old during second battle admitted britishers nevered faced such a threat ever. Sir if you have any doubt i will reply as my detailed reply has been deleted due to net problem.

[mundaire]

These posts had gone wayyy OT, so they have now been split from the original thread... carry on gents... A word of caution though, as always everyone - please be ready to back up statements with verifiable sources!


Cheers!
Abhijeet

[mehulkamdar]

While I am no authority on the history of Indian gunmaking, until the early 1800s there were some fine armouries in India and not just in the Punjab. Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan had a very advanced (for it's time) armoury at Srirangapatnam as had several of the Rajasthan based maharajas. Much earlier, Babur had brought the matchlock into India when he comprehensively defeated the army of Ibrahim Lodhi though India did not seem to go through the wheellock-snaphaunce-flintlock-percussion-pinfire-cartridge evolution like Europe did. Whether this stagnation was due the much later defeat of 1857 or due to some other reason, I don't know. In any cse, until WW-1 it was not unusual for many countries to buy small arms for their armies from external sources - Remington made Lebel rifles for the French army and Savage made Lee Enfields. The Japanese made Mauser rifles for the Royal Thai forces and Mauser and Mannlicher made rifles for several of the world's armies out of dozens of plants in Europe. The fact, though, is that there was a perceptible decline as the evolution that Europe saw in the various types of systems definitely did not take place in India in any of the many small kingdoms that were a part of the country.

penpusher's post about a particular cannon being made for the Afghans is something that has several parallels in history. Suleyman the Magnificent of Turkey overran much of what is now Yugoslavia, Hungary, much of Arabia etc inthe early 16th century using cannon that were cast for his army by Romanian artillery makers. The Janisseries who were the "commando forces" that led the Turkish onslaught against those whom they conquered were Christians as the Turks did not trust their own people to hold powerful positions in their own army, always fearful that their own people would overthrow them. But then, this would make an already OT topic even more OT, I guess.

My copy of Pollard's History of Firearms, the best book for any serious firearms historian IMO, is in India or I would have been able to get more accurate information from it. Otherwise, anyone who is seriously interested in this subject from an academic point of view, would do well to join the Arms and Armour Society in the UK. I cannot think of a better source of information on old firearms or on the history of firearms anywhere else in the world.

Cheers!

[to_saptarshi]

Very Informative and fantastic discussion GUYS Thanks dsingh, for this topic, I am really enjoying it.

Regards
Saptarshi

[Sakobav]

Mehul

You are correct there were nice quality guns being produced all over India to arm various armies Sikh, Maratha, Nizam etc. I am no expert either on Indian guns etc but it would be interesting to know how standardized or what kind of set up they had to manufacture such guns in quantity.


Tipu Sultan is credited amongst the first generals who used rockets in battle field and these were witnessed by Arthur Wellesley or Duke of Wellington who fought against Tipu Sultan in 1789 .
http://www.daviddarling.info/encycloped ... ultan.html


Quoted from Weapons Viusal History of Arms and Armor “There were fine armouries in India and well into 19th century, indigenous craftsmen were still making matchlocks, rather than the more complicated wheellocks and flintlocks, because they were easier and cheaper to manufacture. However, Indian gunmakers were no strangers to intricate decorations, and produced some very ornate pieces using ivory, bone and precious metal as inlays.”

I need a flatbed scanner but his book has nice pictures of following :

Indore Torador c1800 – simple matchlock with common features such as pentagonal section butt and its pronounced recurve caliber .55 in

Indore Matchlock Revolving Musket c 1800 This matchlocks revolving musket is an ambitious attempt to marry the technologies of two periods using local material and fabrication techniques. The cylinder is indexed manually; vents in the barrel are there in case the charge in a chamber is not aligned with the barrel is ignited by flash over - real possibility.

Bundukh Torador – Gwalior c 1800 – extremely ornate matchlock looks like a presentation piece. Supplied with touch hole pricker, gilded butt, to be held under the arm not against the shoulder. Not too functional piece.

Punjabi Flintlock pistol c 1800 caliber 28 bore – with flint clamp screw, cock, striking steel, feather spring, pan, ramrod, ramrod pipe and English style lock plate . Decorated pistol from Lahore. It states that Sikh gunmakers were able to fashion the components of a flintlock but their energies were mostly spend making the workday muskets known as jazails. This pistol has “ damascend” barrel formed by coiling strips of steel around a mandrel and then heating and beating them to weld them together.

Dsingh

On 2005 report if you have a link feel free to post. Never knew about Sohana memorial – if they were Nihangs then no doubtly they belonged to Akali irregular troops. Even Ranjit Singh was wary of this group of fighters.

Again if Duke of Wellington made a statement in 1842, he was the Commander in Chief of British Army a Field Marshal, who in all probability was quoting from field reports prepared by the same in competent bull headed Gen Gough. Generals have a tendency to beef up the report to make it sound that much dramatic, especially when this guys career was on the line and replacement was sailing in.

Cheers

[dsingh]

Dear friends, I came about the origin of firearms when i used to get books along with pictures of arms from Central library during my student days . You will be surprised to know guns came to india much before the 1526 AD when BABAR fought with IBRAMIN LODHI, these guns came in SOUTH INDIA just 100-125 years before battle of PANIPAT these guns were in use in BAHMANI KINGDOM and VIJAY NAGAR EMPIRES these kingdoms used to wage bloodiest battles againist eachother due to proper use of firearms and cavalary BAHAMANI PEOPLE always got upper hand .In battle of TALIKOTTA 1565 AD BREAKWAY STATES OF BAHMANI DYNASTY fought perhaps one of the bloodiest battle in INDIA main cause of defeat of vijaynagar empire was use of COPPER BALLS IN HEAVY GUNS by alliance forces .