depression and difficulties.

Discussions related to firearms that do not fit in anywhere else.
User avatar
mundaire
We post a lot
We post a lot
Posts: 5404
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: New Delhi, India
Contact:

Post by mundaire » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:33 pm

Grumpy";p="23686 wrote: " I am sure that this will show some of the "armchair advisers " who were extolling the ease with which u can buy firearms in europe and the" unlimited ammo"

I suppose that you must know what you`re talking about........Or then again, probably not.
Leave him be Grumps... the gent has it so far up the... that he probably cannot hear what you are saying... :P
Like & share IndiansForGuns Facebook Page
Follow IndiansForGuns on Twitter

FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS - JOIN NAGRI NOW!

www.gunowners.in

"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." -- Robert Heinlein

For Advertising mail webmaster
User avatar
shutzen
Almost at nirvana
Almost at nirvana
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:07 pm
Location: Chandigarh

Post by shutzen » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:41 pm

HI! Grumpy and Abhijit if u would care to visit the british NRA site and see the conditions u have to fulfill for fac for rifle ownwership AND the conditions for renewal which state the range officer has to certifiy how many times u went to the range with a particular rifle and how often u used it etc etc....They have some certain minimum criteria kinda thinggy - u will understand what I am talking about. Neways anyone can visit the british NRA site and chk things out and u got ur foot in yer mouth mate ;) mods here seem to b making it a habit!
Wear short sleeves! Support your right to bare arms!

User avatar
mundaire
We post a lot
We post a lot
Posts: 5404
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: New Delhi, India
Contact:

Post by mundaire » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:49 pm

No my pompous friend - I'm afraid this time it is you who have not done your research before declaring your "knowledge" on a subject that you are quite obviously are ill informed...

Did you for example know that there is a difference between a FAC (Firearms Certificate) and a Shotgun Certificate? Do you realise that the only conditions under which the local police can deny you the latter is if you have been previously convicted of a "violent" crime OR if you are of unsound mind OR if you cannot prove that you have a safe place to store your shotgun? THREE very clear preconditions - nothing subjective about it at all... It is not OPEN to someone's interpretation - UNLIKE INDIA - it is CLEAR and precise and is the same for all LEGAL RESIDENTS of the country - citizens or otherwise...

Anyhow - I am beginning to understand that with you its always wasted breath, you refuse to accept that anyone could possibly know more than you... happy shooting... (pun intended) :P

Cheers!
Abhijeet
Like & share IndiansForGuns Facebook Page
Follow IndiansForGuns on Twitter

FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS - JOIN NAGRI NOW!

www.gunowners.in

"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." -- Robert Heinlein

Grumpy
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 2653
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:43 am
Location: UK

Re: depression and difficulties.

Post by Grumpy » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:32 am

I`ve just had a lecture on the " conditions u have to fulfill for fac for rifle ownwership AND the conditions for renewal" !

Well &%*£ me ! I`ll be a lot wiser when I come to renew my FAC again !

The processes for obtaining a Firearms Certificate and a Shotgun Certificate in the UK are quite different - mostly because there is - in general terms - an automatic right to possess a shotgun but you have to prove need for a firearm.
Whilst there are differences between issuing police forces there is a basic premise in that if you treat the Firearms Licencing Officers with respect and are open, honest and accurate in detailing your requirements they are likely to respond in kind. Take the mickey and and you`ll likely suffer the consequences. Having a centrefire target rifle on your licence that isn`t used from one renewal until the next is an example of `taking the mickey`. It doesn`t take much effort to be granted and to renew a FAC but there are always those who have to whinge and whine about everything. Firearms Licencing Officers aren`t unreasonable but do expect firearms to be used and if you can`t take a target rifle to the range a few times in three years their attitude is likely to be `what`s the point in you having it`?

User avatar
kanwar76
Eminent IFG'an
Eminent IFG'an
Posts: 1861
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:00 pm
Location: Bang-a-lure
Contact:

Re: depression and difficulties.

Post by kanwar76 » Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:20 am

The PC (police constable) doin the processing was very friendly, helpful and co-operative so agreed to come over personally and give it to me. (it is usually sent by post.)


Then comes the day, all bright and beautiful, i didnt slleep all night waiting for the morning, (and 15 min. before the appt. time, i get a phone call that my license had been witheld due to 'activities over the weekend' read bombings and doctors being involved.)




Man..Shutgen.. you got something in your eyes and probably on your mind too..

Can't you see or read....

A brown guy in a alien country (which is almost paranoid about brown guys and guns and understandably so) gets a shotgun certificate without getting into much trouble goes to a shop and select which gun to buy from so many options for plinking (As per you somebody who is not a IISF shooter is a plinker) and you still think its tough.

Imagine a sikh guy going to a police station in Delhi or Haryana or even Punjab after Indira gandhi assassination to get a license.. If you can't understand this then you are wasting your and everyone else’s time..

-Inder

PS: Personally I think tone of first post on this thread is not right at all, Shooter thank your gods that you are still able to buy a gun in a alien country.. Stop cribbing and go shoot the bloody thing..
I am the Saint the Soldier that walks in Peace. I am the Humble dust of your feet, But dont think my Spirituality makes me weak. The Heavens will roar if my Kirpan were to speak...

Sakobav
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 2973
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 7:28 pm
Location: US

Post by Sakobav » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:16 am

Its proverbial second shoe to fall and the malice was uncalled for. Give somebody enough rope to swing across or hang themselves..blessed are the fools

User avatar
shutzen
Almost at nirvana
Almost at nirvana
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:07 pm
Location: Chandigarh

Post by shutzen » Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:48 pm

HI! all ye "enlightened ones" with occuluded vision and clear prejuduice I was simply stating what is clearly mentioned on the UK NRA site regarding FAC. As u obviously cant go through the site I am reproducing relevent parts here and also comparing the Indian counter aspect :

http://www.nra.org.uk/common/asp/genera ... p?site=NRA

Before we start - Handguns are not permitted to be owned by civilians or shooters in Britain - They are banned ! The british pistol team trains in france , belgium and switzerland

Anyone wishing to hold a Firearms Certificate (FAC) for target shooting must be a Full Member of a Home Office Approved (HOA) Club. As the NRA is a HOA Club in it's own right, members can use the NRA as their Primary club when applying for an FAC.


What do I need to do to apply successfully for a Firearms Certificate?
You will need to furnish proof that you have completed the probationary period of a Home Office Approved full bore rifle club, 2 referee forms, 4 photos and a fee.

Why must NRA act as one of my referees on renewal of my Firearms Certificate if I have nominated NRA as my “Primary” or Main Club?
On your renewal form (Firearms Form 101), you will see on the back page under Note to Part E: Referees, that if the application is for renewal, then one of the referees MUST be an official of the Home Office Approved club named on your FAC. If NRA is your primary club, then Firearms Liaison Section at NRA will complete this reference for you and send it direct to the Police. Someone who has known you personally for at least two years and is NOT a member of a shooting club should complete your other referee form. They should complete the referee form and sign one of the photographs, then your referee should send these direct to the Police Firearms Licensing Department address shown on the letter sent to you by the Police when they sent you your renewal paperwork

Why should I ensure that I always complete my Range Card when I attend NRA to use the ranges?
In order to continue to keep your Firearms Certificate, you need to show “Good Reason” for using each of your firearms listed on your FAC. Where good reason is given as Target Shooting and NRA is your Primary (Main) Club, when FAC renewal time looms, NRA must certify to the Police the number of times in the last 12 months you have used each of those firearms. The only way we can do this is by checking on a) the old Range Cards and b) on the computerised Attendance Record system in the Range Office. If you do not sign in, we have no record of your shooting attendance! To put it bluntly, it is YOUR responsibility to ensure that we have up-to-date shooting records for you. With perhaps 4,500 NRA members, it is an impossible task to track and trace each member’s records if they are not on the cards or computer. If you have not shot as a member of NRA during the last 12 months, you will be included on the “nil shooting returns list” which NRA by law must return to the Police each year.

How often do I have to use each firearm?
“Good Reason” means that you must show that you use each of your firearms at least once a year. It is recommended that you keep a full record of your shooting, getting a club official at each of your listed clubs to sign each entry to certify that usage; this helps greatly when it comes to renewal time. You may not use all your firearms at all of your listed clubs: a personal record enables you to show the Firearms Enquiry Officer when he visits you which firearms you have used, where and when. The law says that it is YOUR responsibility to keep those records. In practice, many clubs, including NRA, keep shooting records on the club premises, which may be inspected by members or club officials as required. Most Police forces consider that use of each firearm at least 3 times a year is adequate for justifying Good Reason, as detailed in “Firearms Law: Guidance to the Police”. However, a few police forces would prefer to see at least 6 times per year, although this may be questionable legally. If you have been ill or have been away on business, the Police should take this into consideration when considering “Good Reason”.

Can I bring a guest to shoot if I am an NRA member?
Unfortunately not, each club is limited to 12 guest days per year, the NRA - as the Governing Body of civilian shooting in the UK as well as being Club - uses it’s guest days for corporate events.

Can I shoot with friends who belong to another club?
Only if they are Full Members of the NRA shooting on a target booked by you as a member of the NRA. If the target is booked by an Affiliated club, only members of that club may shoot on the target. Others can only shoot if the day is designated a 'Guest Day' and previously arranged with the police at least 48 hours in advance.



I have a problem with the police regarding my firearms: can NRA help me?
As a full member of NRA, you are covered by a comprehensive Insurance Policy, including legal expenses cover. Please note that is you are a “200 Yards Only” member, then this insurance is less comprehensive. The insurance allows you to gain access to NRA’s legal team, via NRA Firearms Liaison Section, where your problem can be considered and advice given where appropriate. Many perceived problems can be sorted swiftly and easily, once full details are known to us. Where a problem occurs, contact Firearms Liaison Section initially, who will consider the situation and often can advise you and overcome the problem quickly and easily. If this does not work, we will take further advice and discuss the chances of your case succeeding if the case ends up going to court. In order for the insurance to cover the club solicitor’s fees, the case must have a good chance of winning. If the case is considered by the insurance company of not having a sufficiently good chance, we will advise the member accordingly and, if you still wish to pursue the case, we will advise how much the solicitor’s fees would be if you paid for them yourself. Always, when dealing with the police, be polite and courteous: abruptness or perceived rudeness will always give a negative result! Many problems can be solved by listening carefully and working with the Police Firearms Licensing Department, rather than against them. Often, an apparent initial misunderstanding causes problems.

Well the above was the UK aspect and below is the Indian aspect:

1. Anyone over 12 yrs can do target practice with a firearm under supervision.
2. As per the arms act anyone who is a member of a shooting club and applies for a .22 rifle for taget practice "SHALL" be provided a licence.
3. You dont need a gun safe and neither will the thulls inspect ur premises to see where u keep ur weapons.
4. You only need to go thru the thulls for your first licence. All susbequent additions are done without their comming into the pic by the DM office or the HS office .
5. If u shoot the MQS u can keep 4 weapons of the category in which u acheived this and 15K ammo. This is by notification In the ARMS ACT so it is guarenteed that you will get ur endorsements on your licence no matter what. If u r rewonwned in more than one category u can keep upto 10 weapons. There are moves afoot to increase the ammo quota to 25K for shooters who are renowned in more than one category event- shud b thru shortly
6. Once you get your endorsemsnt there is no requirement to shoot further to retain ur weapons. You can shoot again even after a gap and import again .
KANWAR u got a persecution mania chip on yer shoulder - I suggest u drop it
Just go to the NRAI office and check the records and see how the MINORITY community is importing shotguns /rifles/pistols in good numbers - obviously no one is discriminating against them - they are simply sportsmen and whatever benifits acrue to them they enjoy.

From the above extracts it is clear that I have not invented anything on my own- not added anything - simply stated what is published on the website. so u frustrated dudes grow up and get a life ;)

User avatar
eljefe
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 2860
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:37 am

Post by eljefe » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:50 pm

Shutzen,
All applicants for an arms licence will not be into Target shooting.
While licencing difficulties / issues /requirements will obviously vary by country, we do have a very negative attitude in India towards gun owning.There was a time, when production of an arms licence for ID proof usually meant that the person was vetted and a fine upstanding citizen...but that was then.
Besides the comparison of existing NRA rules and regulations, what was also being highlit was the "methodology' employed by the babudom.I have mentioned this earlier about the vasectomy for males, does a female applicant need to go thru surgical birth control too? Best answered by the DM in question...
Its not the minority report, agree with you on that-this seems to be media hype to spotlight a human rights issue and NOT anywhere close to infringement of right to own arms.Simple statistics about the population may reveal that arms licnce applicants across the board may be facing this coercion, regardless of religion
''It dont mean a thing, if it aint got that zing!''

"...Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..."

User avatar
Sujay
One of Us (Nirvana)
One of Us (Nirvana)
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 9:31 pm
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: depression and difficulties.

Post by Sujay » Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:29 pm

Well the above was the UK aspect and below is the Indian aspect

It is incredible ! For the first time I have read someone rating Indian licensing policy better than Britain ( or any western nation ) :!: It is not very hard to prove that in India, license is a matter of whims and fancies and in Britain the law will be implemented ; whatever it might be.

The ignorance has reached such alarming levels was not know to me. Or is the effect of too much NRAI, MQS, Renowned Shot cocktail ?

Just go to the NRAI office and check the records and see how the MINORITY community is importing shotguns /rifles/pistols in good numbers

Inder,

Also visit the DCP's office and check the records for arms license application status. How many are pending to be verified ?
A man should have a hobby. It keeps him out of trouble.

User avatar
shutzen
Almost at nirvana
Almost at nirvana
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:07 pm
Location: Chandigarh

Re: depression and difficulties.

Post by shutzen » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:15 pm

Sujay";p="23727 wrote:Well the above was the UK aspect and below is the Indian aspect

It is incredible ! For the first time I have read someone rating Indian licensing policy better than Britain ( or any western nation ) :!: It is not very hard to prove that in India, license is a matter of whims and fancies and in Britain the law will be implemented ; whatever it might be.?
HI! I am just pointing out the similarities/dissimilarities in the process. AND yes the process for a shooter now is better in INDIA cuz the right to have the multiple weapons and ammo is a constitutional one - no whims and fancies here mate whereas in Britain ur PC can still screw yer happiness. No Gazette notification there. ;)
The ignorance has reached such alarming levels was not know to me. Or is the effect of too much NRAI, MQS, Renowned Shot cocktail ?
Yeah mate its a heady mix - will get even better once the notification of the 25K cartridges comes thru :lol:

Just go to the NRAI office and check the records and see how the MINORITY community is importing shotguns /rifles/pistols in good numbers

Also visit the DCP's office and check the records for arms license application status. How many are pending to be verified
Well partly it is also the "fear" of most indian clerks to make a proper noting and put up the case - the blokes are plain dumb and undereducated sifarshi bharti - and cant figure out exactly what has to be put fwd. It helps to help the poor sod draft the noting to be forwarded to the DM. Most I AM SORRIES who assume charge as DM have a self styled set standard regarding the number of arms licences they want to issue and they go according to that. Besides this the dumb cops keep writing to the DM to restrict issue of new licences so they go even below their self appointed targets. PPL have filed cases in bihar and won them regarding the delay in issue of licences. The arms act defines 6 months time for issue of licence max - but the rotten babus keep extending it because ppl do not assert their right and now with the RTI one can really speed up things. Anyways whoever wants a licence real bad does pull the strings to get it ....

User avatar
eljefe
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 2860
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:37 am

Post by eljefe » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:00 pm

Thats the point-
RTI came on now.Some respite for the grease-my palm-gang? But its so well ingrained , even after the string pulling, bribing the clerks is essential...
Shooter is most likely a resident alien in UK.He can apply for and get a licence and buy a firearm- within days of a major national security event in UK and moan about it on a forum.Free speech allright! and the right to buy arms upheld.
...res ipsa loquitor.
Any one tried applying for a licence in Delhi the week after the parliament blasts? A foreigner?
A 'normal' arms licence applicant wants his shotgun or IOFB 32 revolver and thats that. Couldnt care less about the privileges and existence of sports shooters.Rathore and his media blitz made a bit of a dent.Shooting news routinely gets obliterated in pge 43..How many arms licence applicants know about their privileges ?

How many officials accompanying Indian shoting team abroad are acknowledged shooters? A zillion questions which didnt have answers...
Harping on the rights and priviliges is fine-IF ONE KNOWS -for the average applicant, the arms clerk/ SHO/SP and DM act the judge jury and hangman.
Would the NRAI offer as a service to citizenery of India, a helpdesk to fill up forms, follow up applications, ensure that citizenery know their rights when it comes to wearing short sleeves and b(e)aring arms?
Rather than having an unpaid for/ obsolete website, a posse of officials and their wives who go on foreign jaunts and the few 'elite' who have their cake and eat it too?
Is the arms application form standardised across India?downloadable ? any details on this?
A decent debate should throw up a lot of ideas and productive ones at that, all for the good of the fraternity, all bouquets and brickbats aside.
Best
Axx
''It dont mean a thing, if it aint got that zing!''

"...Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..."

User avatar
Sujay
One of Us (Nirvana)
One of Us (Nirvana)
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 9:31 pm
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: depression and difficulties.

Post by Sujay » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:54 pm

No Gazette notification there.

True. Similarly, there has not been any gazette notifications prohibiting import of Airguns in UK. They do not need any notifications to come out of a self created mess.

Indian Process is better

What do you mean by the process ? The hallowed words of Arms Act perhaps ? Or is it the theoretical process after achieving MQS ( sometimes after punching the cards in bathroom :twisted: ) ?

If the former, you yourself acknowledge that clerks /babus /DMs /Cops etc are totally inept at handling the process. So what is better here ? Are you trying to advice us to be content by reading the process only and abstain from expecting its implementation ?

If the later, the less said the better.....

In Bihar, license is issued strictly on caste considerations. I personally know a doctor whose renewal was refused because his title was "Singh" a Rajput. And his brother in law was a Patna High Court Justice ; then. The manner in which license is secured /denied in Bihar is well known at least to me as I spent decades there. And btw, for your writ to be considered , you should come from the correct caste in Bihar.

NOW SHOW ME SIMILAR EXAMPLE IN BRITAIN.

Anyways whoever wants a licence real bad does pull the strings to get it ....

Real bad ? Everybody denied license ( actually kept in dark) is real bad. And everybody would like to pull strings if they have access to one. But are you suggesting string pulling as a panacea ? Or is it cited as a special Indian talent ---a component of our better process ?

But you have admitted that our process is screwed up and we should educate the babus, pull the strings BUT keep on admiring the process because in some website/Act etc our rights are extolled notwithstanding their daily violation.

I AM DUMBFOUNDED. :shock:
A man should have a hobby. It keeps him out of trouble.

User avatar
mundaire
We post a lot
We post a lot
Posts: 5404
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: New Delhi, India
Contact:

Post by mundaire » Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:45 pm

shutzen";p="23717 wrote:so u frustrated dudes grow up and get a life ;)
Priceless! The most amusing part is that you probably cannot even see the irony in the above statement! :lol:
Like & share IndiansForGuns Facebook Page
Follow IndiansForGuns on Twitter

FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS - JOIN NAGRI NOW!

www.gunowners.in

"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." -- Robert Heinlein

User avatar
mundaire
We post a lot
We post a lot
Posts: 5404
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: New Delhi, India
Contact:

Post by mundaire » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:01 pm

shooter";p="23674 wrote:i emailed the pics link to some friends on the email. some of them even the ones in uk werent very happy about it as the govt. tracs emails and internet and it would prove that they were frnds with a person who has a gun!!!! these are close frnds who want only the best for me and even advised me not to use such pics on the net lest the 'govt learn about it'
Wow! That's some serious paranoia! :shock:
Like & share IndiansForGuns Facebook Page
Follow IndiansForGuns on Twitter

FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS - JOIN NAGRI NOW!

www.gunowners.in

"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." -- Robert Heinlein

User avatar
shutzen
Almost at nirvana
Almost at nirvana
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:07 pm
Location: Chandigarh

Post by shutzen » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:25 pm

mundaire";p="23740 wrote:
shooter";p="23674 wrote:i emailed the pics link to some friends on the email. some of them even the ones in uk werent very happy about it as the govt. tracs emails and internet and it would prove that they were frnds with a person who has a gun!!!! these are close frnds who want only the best for me and even advised me not to use such pics on the net lest the 'govt learn about it'
Wow! That's some serious paranoia! :shock:
HI! What is even more hilarious ?? this or dhotimaster P Chidambram amending the income tax act to allow ITO's to tap ur phones to "unearth" ur black money and spread the net to trap others associating with u - I hope the political babus / duffers realise the implications and defeat this bill otherwise the ITO gonna have a ball :!: AND all the affairs the highups richie riches and netas r having r gonna be leveraged by your friendly evesdropping ITO

Post Reply