Just a thought for NAGRI

[spin_drift]

I just came across this:
India's private sector enters business of military hardware

NEW DELHI (AFP) Feb 10, 2004
India's military, which long kept the private sector at arm's length, is now embracing top companies to try to achieve its ambition for a complete and self-reliant national defence.
Industrial groups such as Tata, Larsen and Toubro and also Mahindra and Mahindra, are chipping away at the state monopoly on defence with aggressive bidding, company officials said.
"We are asking the government to give weightage to the private sector in critical technology areas, as India cannot forever depend on foreign vendors," said Sujit Haridas, who heads the defence wing of the Confederation of Indian Industry trade lobby.
India in 1991 began moving away from a stringently state-run economy. In 2002, the government invited the private sector into defence and allowed direct foreign investment of up to 26 percent in military projects.
Non-government firms, however, were initially relegated to making just trucks and jeeps.
"Things have changed. Today 15 licences have been issued, and today (Larsen and Toubro) can manufacture arms and ammunition," Haridas said.

Here is the link to complete article: http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040210011702.atdfinak.html

NAGRI, can work with these guys to press the government to open up the civilian arms market...
We can get financial support from Confederation of Indian Industry to file a writ in the Supreme Court regarding getting the RKBA recognized as a fundamental right.

What do you guys think about it?

[sammesanj]

well i think it's a great idea, but this article's from 2004, i geuss if something was to be done
or to happen it would have happened already, you know.
anyways the govt.'s too lazy and stubborn, to consider anything like this, especially something
that could benefit citizens of India.

Sam singh

[spin_drift]

well i think it's a great idea, but this article's from 2004, i geuss if something was to be done
or to happen it would have happened already, you know.
anyways the govt.'s too lazy and stubborn, to consider anything like this, especially something
that could benefit citizens of India.

Sam singh

Yes, the article is old, but if you go to the confederation of indian industries web site (http://www.cii.in/Sectors.aspx?enc=prve ... yHmED87nB1) you will see that they do have a defense section which means that they are into it...
you have to understand that they are a powerful lobby and i think if we join hands with them it is going to be beneficial for the both of us.. for us our dreams about owning the latest weapons at affordable prices will come true and they stand to make a boat load of money

[tiwariarrun]

Powerful lobby is it? You think they would fight for RKBA? They have got nothing to do but business!

[goodboy_mentor]

We can get financial support from Confederation of Indian Industry to file a writ in the Supreme Court regarding getting the RKBA recognized as a fundamental right.

The idea seems good because India is a huge market of 1.2 billion people and these people are surely interested in selling their products. These people need to be shown the light to the opportunity i.e. arms are already acknowledged a fundamental right under Articles 19 and 21 of the Constitution though in a clever manner, and the only thing needed is an utterance of the same from Supreme Court. Rest of the things are going to follow automatically.

Not only the Confederation of Indian Industry, even foreign manufacturers would be more than eager to tap this huge market.

[veeveeaar]

If our private sector is allowed to manufacture all types of arms and ammo, More competition will prevail and the battle front soldier will benifit from superior technology and the government by lesser cost. It will also pave the way for innovations . The civilian sector will also benifit.

[Virendra S Rathore]

The government is anyways planning to open up defense sector further for private players.
Tatas have clearly announced intentions and are preparing to jump in.
What needs to be seen is, what is there in it for the civilians.
Is the Army the only beneficiary?

[essdee1972]

Folks, most of these contracts are for the big-ticket items like missiles, tanks, planes, rockets, vehicles, and that too for "parts thereof"; not for actual guns, and certainly not for complete small arms. So, doubt whether our and their interests will coincide!

EssDee

[YogiBear]

Aloha,

If your business sector needs a reason to ramp up firearms production, tell them to look at US Private firearms

sales. Best it's been in years and growing in a stagnating economy.

A real example is Barrett of 50 cal fame. Small cottage shop to international arms dealer.

No US mlitary unit is with out at least one somewhere. Barrett has a firearm for almost any long range

sniping need. Before it was banned at the local range(too powerful) I came close to buying one for the Wife

because she wanted one.

Because of the need for concealed carry firearms in the US, sales to women are thru the roof.

Locally, in the Basic Handgun classes that I assist teaching, over 20% of the classes are women. They are

Very Serious about learning to shoot for Self Defense.

Once they learn how, many want their own handgun. Those that go on to advanced classes are Not to be

taken lightly. They really get into guns and one gun is not enough. One lady I taught has her own

Beretta 92 and wants "pretty" Berettas. She's causing her husband to think of selling his Glock(she doesn't like it)

to finance another Higher end 92 for "them". As he says, maybe she'll let me shoot it every now and then.

In the US Over 10 Million permits to Carry a Concealed Firearm has been issued in some 40 plus states.

Right now, in the US Comcealed Carry firearms are BIG Business. Many if not ALL major gun makers have seen

the writing on the wall and are producing Conceal Carry guns and accessories non stop.

Tell your arms industry how Much they will benefit in a country of 1.2 Billion people. Change your government's

thinking and with US(NRA) help, Mumbai will Never happen again.

[sammesanj]

Aloha,

If your business sector needs a reason to ramp up firearms production, tell them to look at US Private firearms

sales. Best it's been in years and growing in a stagnating economy.

A real example is Barrett of 50 cal fame. Small cottage shop to international arms dealer.

No US mlitary unit is with out at least one somewhere. Barrett has a firearm for almost any long range

sniping need. Before it was banned at the local range(too powerful) I came close to buying one for the Wife

because she wanted one.

Because of the need for concealed carry firearms in the US, sales to women are thru the roof.

Locally, in the Basic Handgun classes that I assist teaching, over 20% of the classes are women. They are

Very Serious about learning to shoot for Self Defense.

Once they learn how, many want their own handgun. Those that go on to advanced classes are Not to be

taken lightly. They really get into guns and one gun is not enough. One lady I taught has her own

Beretta 92 and wants "pretty" Berettas. She's causing her husband to think of selling his Glock(she doesn't like it)

to finance another Higher end 92 for "them". As he says, maybe she'll let me shoot it every now and then.

In the US Over 10 Million permits to Carry a Concealed Firearm has been issued in some 40 plus states.

Right now, in the US Comcealed Carry firearms are BIG Business. Many if not ALL major gun makers have seen

the writing on the wall and are producing Conceal Carry guns and accessories non stop.

Tell your arms industry how Much they will benefit in a country of 1.2 Billion people. Change your government's

thinking and with US(NRA) help, Mumbai will Never happen again.

cheers yogibear, i like your suggestion.

Sam singh

[Bhargav]

Well even though we have a population of 1.2 billion that doesn't mean the arms market for the civilians will become great like the US overnight and the private sector making arms can make big money.

Civilian firearms market in the US is booming because people believe in firearms and here we have a strong and big chunk of people who want to take up the responsibility of owning firearms. But in India, if you ask an average Joe on the street about "self-protection" he will agree, he might also agree about the fact of RKBA but when an actual time comes to buy or keep a gun in the house .. there the problem starts. The guy starts asking himself .. "Why do I need a gun in my house when I have children and blah blah blah".

Mind you, this average joe is the guy who enjoys the video games where he shoots all kind of assault rifles and things like that but when the time comes to own one or apply for the licence the chances of him/her backing out are more. I want to point out that in the US, tradition plays a very crucial role in gun ownership and safe gun handling. We do not have this tradition, thanks to the British for the anti gun laws. There are generations who have never owned guns and that thought have never crossed their mind. That doesn't make them anti-gun but still.

So even if the private sector starts making guns, it would be beneficial for the police and the army right away but it would take long time for these guys to make big bucks in the civilian market.

This would eventually change if more and more law abiding citizens start getting license and spreading the word. Watching a demo of something is a great tool to learn and understand from rather than just reading it somewhere.

[spin_drift]

Bhargav, i do not agree with your point of view here, reason being: 1). Most law abiding citizens do not go for applying for a license because of the bureaucratic hassles involved if we get the procedure involving of getting license simpler and in a timely manner you would see a lot of people going for it. 2). we are a nation of 1.2 billion people and if only 10 percent of the people opt for buying guns and maintaining guns and spend on an average of (equivalent of) $ 500 annually (on guns, ammo, accessories, etc) that would mean 120 000 000 X $500 = $60 000 000 000 annually... i think this would qualify as freaking huge market...

if NAGI takes these to an industrial consortium we can get a lot of funding which help us in getting visibility which, in turn would help us generating more awareness regarding RKBA

[Bhargav]

Bhargav, i do not agree with your point of view here, reason being: 1). Most law abiding citizens do not go for applying for a license because of the bureaucratic hassles involved if we get the procedure involving of getting license simpler and in a timely manner you would see a lot of people going for it. 2). we are a nation of 1.2 billion people and if only 10 percent of the people opt for buying guns and maintaining guns and spend on an average of (equivalent of) $ 500 annually (on guns, ammo, accessories, etc) that would mean 120 000 000 X $500 = $60 000 000 000 annually... i think this would qualify as freaking huge market...

if NAGI takes these to an industrial consortium we can get a lot of funding which help us in getting visibility which, in turn would help us generating more awareness regarding RKBA

Well I agree that many law abiding citizens do not want to go through the hassle of applying today and this number may improve if the procedure is improved but 10% of the civilian market is not a huge market for private sector to keep their lights on. And when we talk about private sector, there would be competitors with in them so this 10% market will be shared again.

Private sector can survive only on civilian business coz army and police will take only so much of arms from them, 1 official issue per jawan or per policemen that it . It will be the civilian market that will support these companies. And like I said in my earlier post, this will not happen overnight. In the US, gun ownership is around 90%(I have not looked at any statistics so pls correct me if I am wrong) and each individual has multiple firearms so its booming.

In india, it is possible but it will take time and it will need lot of work from organizations like NAGRI, NRAI and people like us. Today there are many law abiding citizens in india who have never fired a firearm. Even though they love the concept, they still have to experience that "thing" first hand. For some, this would be love at first sight... for some .. a "not my cup of tea" experience.

And one solution to making people aware is, every city should have a major range like Delhi has the Dr. Karni Singh range. If you take my example, today I am searching for a range in Mumbai who offers Trap shooting facilities and to be honest with you, my hope is fading... I also have a post in the Shotgun section here at IFG but no replies yet.. that means there are no facilities yet..... and we have trap shooters competing in the olympics.. My philosophy is simple, give the person "match" first "cigarette" afterwards

[spin_drift]

Well I agree that many law abiding citizens do not want to go through the hassle of applying today and this number may improve if the procedure is improved but 10% of the civilian market is not a huge market for private sector to keep their lights on. And when we talk about private sector, there would be competitors with in them so this 10% market will be shared again.

10% is enough to get the wheels rolling.... and one must not forget that the market will grow annually...
to start the private sector does not need to setup a R&D and come with new designs or make new alloys, etc, they can setup joint ventures with foreign manufactures.... they don't need to invest much in the infrastructure as they already have most of the machines, all the need to do is recalibrate or reconfigure them.... the only problem I see here is getting skilled workforce (gunsmiths)...
Also, you will not have too many companies jumping in the market in the first few years... they will only come in once they see the market growing

[Bhargav]

well I agree, the 10% will get the wheels rolling.. and yes if an indian company gets in collaboration with any overseas firearms company .. this will bring in a huge improvement in quality. Lets hope for the best.