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Does Blank Firearm (starter pistol) need a police permission

The legal aspects of owning, shooting, importing arms/ ammo and other related legal aspects as well as any other legal queries. Please note: This INCLUDES all arms licensing issues/ queries!

Does Blank Firearm (starter pistol) need a police permission

Postby anisiqbal » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:42 pm

Greets to all
My query is that, does one needs a police certificate to carry a fake firearm and what does the law hav to say about this.
one more thing
is there a section for fake arms police certificate anywhere to be found in the Arms Act???
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Re: Does Blank Firearm (starter pistol) need a police permission

Postby Amit357 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:15 pm

Hi Iqbal,its not the Pistol which is a problem,the problem is with the ammo,P Caps and Gun Powder in the Dummy Cartridge, -------------------, they require a License :roll:
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Re: Does Blank Firearm (starter pistol) need a police permission

Postby goodboy_mentor » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:51 pm

My query is that, does one needs a police certificate to carry a fake firearm and what does the law hav to say about this.
Police is nobody to certify or decide anything. Only if any law is getting violated, Police can file a case under that law in court. Court decides the case and gives judgment as per the law. Starter pistols are imitation firearms. Imitation firearms are not covered under Arms Act 1959.
P Caps and Gun Powder in the Dummy Cartridge, -------------------, they require a License :roll:
Are they not doing the role of fireworks in an imitation firearm? Are they not exempt from license under the Explosives Rules 2008 created under the Explosives Act 1884?
Rule 9. No licence needed in certain cases.— Notwithstanding anything contained in rule 7, no licence shall be necessary for the following cases, namely :—

(4) transport of safety fuse and fireworks;

(5) possession of fireworks not exceeding one hundred kilogram for own use and not for sale;

(6) possession by any person for his own private use and not for sale of gunpowder not exceeding five kilograms and fifty metres of safety fuse in any State other than Bihar, Kerala, Tamilnadu and West Bengal and of small arm nitro-compound not exceeding five kilograms except in the State of Kerala;

Rule 57. Small quantities of fireworks exempted.—
Nothing contained in rules 49, shall apply to the transport of manufactured fireworks in the custody of a person entitled to possess them without a licence under sub-rule (5) of rule 9:

Provided that not more than five kilograms of manufactured fireworks, securely packed in original packing, shall be so transported in any motor vehicle used for conveyance of more than six passengers.
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Does Blank Firearm (starter pistol) need a police permission

Postby marksman » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:37 pm

Police generally is as much unaware of the difference between real handgun and a blank firing handgun as most of the population in India. It's this ignorance that may put you in hardship if found on you in a sensitive environment. Therefore my suggestion would be to have such handgun certified by the authority concerned if possible and carry it along with you when ever. This will also prevent you from encountering unnecessarily created problems and from coughing out the greens to get out of it.
There is no license required to possess this kind of handgun and blank ammo. One may land in cart loads of legal troubles if one decides to misuse it though. One must learn to be as much disciplined while handling it as one would with a true fire arm. Showing it off in public places and amongst friends should be the last thing on your mind. In fact I find no use of these contraptions except in Movies, TV, Theater and sport events. Or to get out of life threatening situation to you or your loved ones. But may God be with you if who ever you are trying to scare finds out it's a fake. :roll: :roll:

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Re: Does Blank Firearm (starter pistol) need a police permission

Postby goodboy_mentor » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:17 pm

Therefore my suggestion would be to have such handgun certified by the authority concerned if possible and carry it along with you when ever.
Which legal authourity will be willing to certify and they will certify under which law? Do you mean some government lab who will certify afer taking some fees?
Or to get out of life threatening situation to you or your loved ones.
I disagree on this becaue the person on other end may think the imitation firearm to be a real firearm drawn to kill him and he may instantly react with a deadly force in self defense. You can imagine the results. :(
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Does Blank Firearm (starter pistol) need a police permission

Postby marksman » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:43 pm

Well, I am only aware of Mumbai Police which issues a covering letter on the insistence of the owner of such handgun, stating that a particular handgun bearing serial no. so and so is a blank firing pistol which does not come under the purview of Arms Act and thus does not need a fire arm license... or something to this effect. I think it is pretty fair on the part of Greater Mumbai Police to safeguard a particular citizen against certain opportunistic elements from Govt machinery itself (any state) from exploiting him.. Now Mr. goodboy_ mentor, you are welcome to argue it out with them as to who gave them the right to do this.

Cheers !!! :wink:

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Re: Does Blank Firearm (starter pistol) need a police permission

Postby spin_drift » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:28 pm

marksman wrote: I think it is pretty fair on the part of Greater Mumbai Police to safeguard a particular citizen against certain opportunistic elements from Govt machinery itself (any state) from exploiting him..

Marksman


Are they (police) not a big part of the "opportunistic elements" of the government machinery?
I believe in second chances… it’s called reloading
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Re: Does Blank Firearm (starter pistol) need a police permission

Postby hhchoudhary » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:03 pm

yes u need a police permisson for the mumbai city i have a both real and starter and rifle of bruno hear i am sending the attachment of the permission attachment with this please check it

-- Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:11 pm --

i am unable to attach the scan copy of the mumbai police noc certificate if u want to see it please pm me i will send the scan copy of the certificate
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Re: Does Blank Firearm (starter pistol) need a police permission

Postby bandukbhandar » Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:02 pm

hhchoudhary did you produce blank shots also before police authorities while seeking the exemption certificate.

I don't think you would have got the exemption certificate if the starter pistol was produced for inspection with its blank shots.
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Re: Does Blank Firearm (starter pistol) need a police permission

Postby goodboy_mentor » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:24 pm

It appears that some people are unnecessarily complicating the matters for themselves due to confusion. Under Arms Act 1959 neither is blank gun a firearm nor its cartridges are ammunition.

Definition of ammunition under Section 2(1)b of Arms Act 1959 says:
"ammunition" means ammunition for any firearm, and includes---
Definition of arms under Section 2(1)c of Arms Act 1959 says:
"arms" means articles of any description designed or adapted as weapons for offence or defence, and includes firearms, sharp edged and other deadly weapons, and parts of, and machinery for manufacturing, arms, but does not include articles designed solely for domestic or agricultural uses such as a lathi or an ordinary walking stick and weapons incapable of being used otherwise than as toys or of being converted into serviceable weapons;
Definition of firearms under Section 2(1)e of Arms Act 1959 says:
"firearms" means arms of any description designed or adapted to discharge a projectile or projectiles of any kind by the action of any explosive or other forms of energy
Blank gun is not an article of defence or offence, hence not even an arm as defined under Section 2(1)c of Arms Act 1959. Also blank gun does not discharge a projectile, hence not a firearm for the meaning of Section 2(1)e of Arms Act 1959. When blank gun is not a firearm, the blanks for its use are not ammunition for the meaning of Section 2(1)b of Arms Act 1959.

As far as question of explosives within the blanks are concerned, they are exempt from Explosives Act 1884. The blanks are fireworks for the meaning of Explosives Rules 2008. I quote the definition of fireworks as per Rule 2(24) of Explosives Rules 2008 below:
“fireworks” means low hazard explosive comprising of any composition or device manufactured with a view to produce coloured fire or flame, light effect, sound effect, smoke effect (coloured or natural), or combination of such effects and includes fog-signals, fuses, rockets, shells, percussion caps;
In order to understand further one may read Rule 9(4), (5), (6) and Rule 57 under Explosive Rules 2008. I have mentioned them in my first reply to this thread.

When neither blank gun or its blanks are covered under Arms Act 1959, the question of getting "exemption" or "exemption certificate" certifying exemption from Arms Act 1959 does not arise. Also the blanks are fireworks as per the meaning of Rule 2(24) of Explosives Rules 2008 and hence already exempt. Even still if someone is bent on getting an "exemption certificate" which is anyways not legally required, it is not required to unnecessarily produce the blanks, to further confuse those people issuing such "exemption certificate".
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Does Blank Firearm (starter pistol) need a police permission

Postby bandukbhandar » Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:04 pm

But manufacturing and selling fireworks require a licence under Explosives Act.

Moreover, Police Commissioner, Mumbai or any other licencing authority does require a Invoice of the weapon before entering the same on licences or issuing any type of certificates for any type of weapon.

I don't know why some members of the forum are getting annoyed on lawful enquiries by Police in Mumbai.

The enquiries on statrters is not only going in Mumbai alone, Police in some other cities have also been going to dealers places and asking for the sources of this pistols.
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Re: Does Blank Firearm (starter pistol) need a police permission

Postby goodboy_mentor » Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:03 am

But manufacturing and selling fireworks require a licence under Explosives Act.
Manufacturing and selling is different from possessing for personal use. Since normally the discusions on this website are related to products possessing for personal use and it also appears that the author of this thread raised questions related for his personal use, I have mentioned in my previous posts Rules 9(4), (5), (6) and Rule 57 under Explosive Rules 2008 for possessing for personal use.
Moreover, Police Commissioner, Mumbai or any other licencing authority does require a Invoice of the weapon before entering the same on licences or issuing any type of certificates for any type of weapon.
We are discussing blank guns in this thread not weapons. Blank guns are not weapons or arms or firearms under Arms Act 1959. If you mean to say that the Police Commissioner is doing all this for blank guns, I will say he should be spending time to do some other better work, rather than wasting his time and energy for something which is not even covered under Arms Act 1959.
I don't know why some members of the forum are getting annoyed on lawful enquiries by Police in Mumbai.
I am not getting annoyed at all. I am just explaining the legal position as asked by the author of this thread. If you note the post of the author of this thread, you will find that he has asked the following questions:
My query is that, does one needs a police certificate to carry a fake firearm and what does the law hav to say about this. one more thing is there a section for fake arms police certificate anywhere to be found in the Arms Act???
I have explained the legal position as asked by the author of this thread, in a crystal clear manner. It is choice of the readers if they prefer to understand the legal position or prefer to stay ignorant.

Does issuing of "exemption certificate" still remain a lawful inquiry? Why would anyone like that police should come to his home and inquire unnecessarily when he is not violating any law?
The enquiries on statrters is not only going in Mumbai alone, Police in some other cities have also been going to dealers places and asking for the sources of this pistols.
The blank guns are not "pistols" or "guns" or "firearms" or "weapons" under the Arms Act 1959. No doubt these blank guns may look and appear like pistols but these are imitation firearms, something like other imitation firearms used by children during Diwali. If the the arms dealer has license to sell the blanks(fireworks as per meaning of Rule 2(24) of Explosives Rules 2008) for the blank guns(not covered by Arms Act 1959 since they are neither arms or firearms), unless the policemen visiting the dealers are corrupt and causing visits with sole purpose of extracting bribes or are honestly ignorant of the Arms Act 1959. I do not see any reason for them to visit arms dealers to inquire about blank guns for the purpose of Arms Act 1959.
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Does Blank Firearm (starter pistol) need a police permission

Postby bandukbhandar » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:06 pm

The Percussion Caps(P Caps) used in Muzzle Loaders and the blank shots used in blank firers/starter pistols are one and the same.

To possess P caps for whatever use requires a licence in India.

Now ,if members think Blank shots just produce sound, then 12 Bore Blank shots should also not require licence to possess and use.
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Re: Does Blank Firearm (starter pistol) need a police permission

Postby goodboy_mentor » Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:31 pm

I am not thinking or saying anything. It is the Rule 2(24) of Explosives Rules 2008 that is thinking and saying very clearly that “fireworks” means low hazard explosive comprising of any composition or device manufactured with a view to produce coloured fire or flame, light effect, sound effect, smoke effect (coloured or natural), or combination of such effects and includes fog-signals, fuses, rockets, shells, percussion caps;

Now one may think and decide what means what. :)
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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