TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

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Re: TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

Postby timmy » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:43 am

In Barnes's Cartridges of the World, he says:

These pistols are a basic Browning type design similar to the Colt .45 auto pistol. However, they incorporate many original features to simplify manufacturing processes and must be considered an advance over the original Browning patent. These pistols are often a little rough or crude in finish, but are well-made and of excellent design.


My take on Barnes's comments is that he's right on, with regard to facts, but "3 bags full" when it comes to "must be considered an advance over the original Browning patent." Here are my observations:

One thing that's a big simplification is the modification of the slide stop. In the 1911, it has a minutely intricate design that allows it to be retained without a clip. The TT33 uses a clip to retain the slide stop on the right hand side, which doesn't impact the utility of the weapon (it works just the same), is easier to manufacture, doesn't look as good, and raises the possibility of the clip getting lost during takedown.

Another attribute is that the entire hammer-sear mechanism is self-contained in its own assembly, which also includes the guide lips that control feeding from the magazine into the action. There are plusses and minuses to this arrangement. The plusses are:

The entire assembly can be replaced with another in the field by a relatively untrained person for quick repair.

The feed lips for the magazine are not so critical, since this machined assembly, and not the more easily damaged magazine, has the final control over feeding.

The disadvantages are:

The mainspring is necessarily small, making cocking the hammer a somewhat clumsy affair. The spring is very stiff in order to get the needed power to detonate the primer. Perhaps this was also made necessary by the same cartridge being used in the submachine gun PPHs 41, But given that the TT33 was developed a few years earlier, I'd think that this is unlikely. In contrast, the long leaf spring in the 1911 is much easier to thumb back and also the action is easier to cycle.

The assembly does away with any safety. This is a matter of disagreement amongst pistol shooters, as some do maintain that safeties are superfluous for military handguns. (This was also the view of the Polish cavalry, regarding the development of the Radom Vis 35 9mm.) In TT33 and derivative pistols imported into the USA, a safety must be fitted to import them, and both trigger and sear lock designs are used for these.

However, the bottom line for the TT33 as a carry gun is that you cannot carry it with a round in the chamber safely. If one uses the half-cock notch, dropping the pistol on the hammer can cause the half cock notch to fail, and at least one fatality has been recorded due to just this circumstance. The hammer cannot be carried down on a loaded chamber, since the designers did not see fit to copy the inertia firing pin of the 1911. This means that the hammer rests on the firing pin and the firing pin, in turn, rests directly on the primer.

For those fitted with a safety (like my Norinco "Tokagypt" copy in 9mm), I wouldnt' trust the safety as far as I could throw a bull by the tail, nor would I consider locking the trigger to be safe either, but if the half cock notch on the hammer is prone to fail, what can be said for the full cock notch.

I have posted similar sentiments on US gun sites in the past, only to be howled down by brave souls who inform me that they feel quite safe in packing a TT33 in their waistband on half cock.

To be blunt about this, my opinion is that in this circumstance, the weapon is not the only entity on half cock, if you catch my drift. But it's their life.

Another issue is that, as Barnes says, they can be crudely manufactured. Some of the examples I've seen (such as Polish-made versions) are finished very nicely, but often in the TT33 and its derivatives, keeping the machining process simple means that a minimal amount of metal is removed from the basic large part forgings. So, while the TT33 is quite compact for a weapon chambered in 7.62x25 or 9mm (being similar to a 1903 pocket pistol in this regard -- it is, for instance, a whole lot more compact than my Detective Special), it is also quite heavy for a weapon of its size.

I do think that it is quite strong and it will digest pretty much anything reasonable that you can feed it. If it is all one has, then it must be made to work. However, the main thing for me is the need to carry it without a round in the chamber, so that the slide must be cycled to bring the weapon into a ready-for-action state makes it undesirable for a carry gun.

On another subject, I'd also observe that the Soviet Makarov semi-auto pistol is commonly considered to be a derivative of the Walther PP design, a blowback action that is chambered for the 9mm Makarov cartridge, which is slightly more powerful than the .380 ACP.
Regards,
tim
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Re: TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

Postby TwoRivers » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:16 am

"packing a TT33 in their waistband on half cock". Do, and that's exactly what you may end up with. :o
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Re: TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

Postby timmy » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:46 am

Well, I hadn't thought of it that way, but now that you mention it, you're right!
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Re: TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

Postby Amit357 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:38 pm

Guys the 30 TT refered to in India as 30 Chineses,issued to serving and retired service men,were basically the Pistols which were confiscated at various border states and also in encounters,later issued by COD Jabalapur with a new serial no and on a OD Vocher,its a great pistol and true to its caliber sounds like a rifle {guys from Pakgun forum / pakistanwould be familar with this},but alas as everything in our country this also turned into a SCAM,with service guys flogging them off in the market at 200k to 250k.The latest buzz from Raksha Matralya is that once a 30 pistol and othe NSP weapons has been endorsed on an Arms Licence,the sale permission of the same will not be given by the licensing authority, so that the sale of NSP Weapons is not allowed.A massive scam of this nature was detected in Rajasthan a year back. There are few TT pistols with guys who were in the Air Force who had brought these when they used to go to Mother Russia pre 1984 for training of various Aircraft.The TT as a firearm is much superior to the Chinese,it looks crude but,its dependable.After USSR got desolved a lot of the small arms found their way into Militancy and various other underground networks,this being one the biggest compliment one can give for the ruggedness and dependabilty of these weapons. :cheers:
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Re: TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

Postby timmy » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:46 am

... true to its caliber sounds like a rifle...


At the range, it certainly does give evidence of having some liveliness!

One of the reasons I've been interested in the 7.62x25 is because of the availability of .308 caliber sabots. This will allow loading a cartridge similar to the "accelerator" loads for .30-06. Here's the idea:

Image

The information I've viewed indicates velocities in the 1700 to 2000 feet/sec range, using .223 bullets. One person has named this combination after himself and offered ammunition as a product:

http://www.ammo-one.com/223Timbs.html

One fellow submitted this info from his own work:

Image

This article also quotes some chronograph loads, along with some achieved groups, including the Timbs ammunition I mentioned:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... ntent;col1

There's also some other information that pertains to this cartridge in the CZ-52.

A note about both the TT33 and the CZ-52: when old John M. Browning designed the 1911, he put a lot of work into it. One of the improvements he made was to angle the grip/magazine a bit from his original 1905 design. Many of the "improvements" that followed, such as the TT33 and the CZ-52, used a grip that is more perpendicular to the barrel/slide.

Old John M. made sure that the angle of the grip would correspond to the natural angle at which we hold a pistol. He did a good job on his research -- much better than those who, coming after him, "improved" his designs.

Well, having and having shot both my CZ-52 and Norinco (TT copy), they DO tend to shoot low, because the grips are too "straight." In the TT33, this problem is exacerbated, due to the amount of metal left in the front of the weapon, especially the slide. In other words, the muzzle heaviness, combined with the straight grip, contributes to a natural low shooting pistol. You have to concentrate to get around this.

The CZ-52 is better in this regard, as the Czechs worked to get a lot of the muzzle weight out of the front of the weapon, which is obvious when you take it down.

Please do not get the impression that my comments here or previously are meant to disagree with the sentiments that Amit357 voiced. The TT33 design is a very tough, serviceable, and well-thought-out design. Rather than being designed to provide civilians with a weapon, it was made as a side arm for a large military establishment with many different sorts of individuals.

I'd like my comments to be viewed in light of my being a happy owner and user.
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Re: TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

Postby nagarifle » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:29 am

some how i always found the TT 33 to shoot high, with darn great and very impressive muzzle flash at sunset :D due to it grip perhaps? being small? for big hands.

one school of thought is that during the early years, pistol was an officers weapon, however in the old days officers would carry swords, which was used one handed, thus the idea stayed and the grip was made small (silly thinking if you ask me) for use with one hand only.

i am just wondering if them darn Russians were big man with small hands? :shock:

maybe the grip is a contributory factor in low/high impact? which may depend on the size of your hands?
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Re: TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

Postby ngrewal » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:09 am

Great summary folks timmy, amit, tworivers, nagarifles..thanks

timmy

could you post pictures of your CZ 52 and TT33 ...

Amit -- Naive question any pictures/dimensions of 30 bore bullet and few folks still get a gun with original 7.62 x25 ( mauser C96) and lic for it..one member here has it and I have seen one more both are C96. Although one I saw was either Darra or Chinese made.

Best
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Re: TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

Postby timmy » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:19 am

Surely:

Image

Please note that this isn't a real TT33, but the Chinese Norinco copy.
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Re: TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

Postby Anand » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:32 pm

As "un-ergonomic" :) as the grip angle is and the lack of a true safety (in the original design), I simply love the absolute simplicity of the pistol. Obviously these pistols were not designed for concealed carry, so unless you are absolutely proficient with the "Israeli" type of self defensive maneuvers ( draw pistol-rack slide and fire real quick) there may be problems.

I owned one while I lived in the U.S, in 7.62x25 (awesome cartridge by the way) and reloaded for it some.
The one I had was a Chinese version( TU-90 I think) which came with a spare 9mm barrel. Never could get the 9mm barrel to function properly had many "stove pipes". Though 7.62x25 was very reliable, the weird grip angle kinda screwed up my accuracy, but then I always knew I was lousy shot :D . Never got around to messing with the .30 caliber sabots though.

Miss those good times! :cry:
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Re: TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

Postby Amit357 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:53 pm

Hi Timmy,great pics of the 30 China, from what i have seen there is a lil amount of diffrence in the 30 TT,and its Chinese clon,if one knows one handguns it very easy to spot,the workmanship on the TT,specially the slide and the hammer are diffrent and more refined in the TT,here one sees a lot of variants with various marking.A couple of enterprising dealer taking a couple of proof marksfrom Baikal DBBL Guns and the Tula 12 Bore Auto Loader started marketing them as the TT,saw a cpl of 30 pistols with diffrent blueing on them being sold as the orginal TT,one of them had MADE IN RUSSIA inscribed on it in stainlesss steel finish.I think dealers from our side of the woods are finally trying to do a better job then the people at Darra.
N, legally with whatever paperwork it carries, weapons issued by COD are not for sale,they are given to Services guys for the service rendered to the country for amounts which just covers the cost of the paperwork.A Genral Saheb who will be retiring from the Army on 30th of May has got a Brno Model 1,{which i rate as the best of Brnos, oops dont want to start a fresh discusion/arguments on this,these are strictly my veiws} its almost 95 % in orignality for Rs 750, alongwith 50 KF Cartridges.
Tim regarding the orignal TT pistols and a word of caution to anybody trying to buy a 30 TT as told by the seller,check the grips,they have the words, CCCP embossed on the grips in the space left between the points of the star.Metal Engaving on the body and the slide are pretty easy to do with the computer based engravers but embossing on a plastic grip is a diffrent ball game.Oops again i hope i havent given any ideas to someone :cheers:
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Re: TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

Postby kanglasa » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:17 pm

HI GUYS
am new here but i am interested in guns so here i am. well regarding M20 or the tokarev.. its the same as far as my knowledge goes the m20 are export version of the chinese type 54 7.62, and type 54 are the copy of tokerav. its round is very powerful , and more powerful than a 9 mm. magazine capacity is also less 8 rounds and costly too rs 150-180 per peace. I have one and its a good weapon, better than a .32 ( 7.65) any day.
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Re: TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

Postby Lucky Luke » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:47 pm

TwoRivers wrote:"packing a TT33 in their waistband on half cock". Do, and that's exactly what you may end up with. :o


Despite having Zero knowledge about guns, I go through most of the posts hoping that at some stage all this stuff might start making sense to me.

But the above comment by Two Rivers is an absolute Gem and surely deserves a High Five ! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

Postby Subal das » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:21 pm

never been much popular in russia, TT was replaced by Makarov and more serious pistol used by board patrols and Special forces was Stechkin 9mm

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg22-e.htm

much more worth to be manufactured nowadays

-- Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:30 pm --

nagarifle wrote:some how i always found the TT 33 to shoot high, with darn great and very impressive muzzle flash at sunset :D due to it grip perhaps? being small? for big hands.


that is true, I heard for that recoil exactly it was removed from armed forces and replaced by Makarov, reason for this recoil was heavy barrel

some time ago I was trying to search on web support of this view and cant find anything, I have seen one Russian policeman trying to shot cat in his back yard with TT from 3-4 meters and cat run away unharmed.
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Re: TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

Postby TwoRivers » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:27 am

Don't quite see how any claims to popularity can be made, one way or another, when the pistol in question is army issue in a country that does not allow possession of handguns by civilians.
It does take quite a bit of shooting with the Tok to get used to that grip angle, and the sharp muzzle blast is distracting and painful to the ears. A target or plinking pistol it is not.
A heavy barrel, which the pistol does not have, would make for less recoil.
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Re: TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

Postby nagarifle » Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:53 am

TwoRivers wrote:Don't quite see how any claims to popularity can be made, one way or another, when the pistol in question is army issue in a country that does not allow possession of handguns by civilians.
It does take quite a bit of shooting with the Tok to get used to that grip angle, and the sharp muzzle blast is distracting and painful to the ears. A target or plinking pistol it is not.
A heavy barrel, which the pistol does not have, would make for less recoil.


:agree: but where or who would make a heavy barrel for the TT? unless one takes a rifle barrel chopes it to size and puts a lug/link on it :D its been done i think.
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