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Is 9mm an authorised civilian bore??

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Is 9mm an authorised civilian bore??

Postby captrakshitsharma » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:35 am

Hi friends..
Are we allowed to own a 9mm pistol in india as civilians . Is it an NP bore. Lot of confusion on it. Pls clarify. Thx.
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Re: Is 9mm an authorised civilian bore??

Postby Timnorris » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:39 am

Other than 9mm Parabellum (NATO) used for defence............ other types of 9mm are legal
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Re: Is 9mm an authorised civilian bore??

Postby mundaire » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:50 am

Ownership of a firearm chambered for 9mm Para/ 9mm Luger is quite legal, so long as you have the correct license - in this case a prohibited bore pistol license. The term "prohibited bore" is actually a misnomer, as ownership of these calibres is highly restricted but not prohibited in the real sense. Licenses for these are only issued by the Min of Home Affairs (MHA), New Delhi. In practice (these days) PB licenses are only issued to VIPs or people who have inherited such firearms.

For more you may want to read up on the discussion thread pertaining to Prohibited Bores under the Legal Eagle section here.

HTH

Cheers!
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Re: Is 9mm an authorised civilian bore??

Postby tingriman » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:31 pm

9 mm Parabellum aka 9 mm Luger aka 9x19 mm is basically military /LE calibre, and as Abhijeet said, is a P.Br , obtaining license for this calibre is almost next to impossible. However, 9mm short aka 9 mm kurz aka 9 mm carto aka .380 ACP aka 9x17mm is N.P. Br. The license granted to civilians are generally of N.P. Br weapons.

Authorisation depends on type of license you have in hand.


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Re: Is 9mm an authorised civilian bore??

Postby cottage cheese » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:40 pm

On a somewhat parallel strain, one must also factor in a small misnomer- Many a layperson (Not limited to our country) refer to semi auto pistols as '9mm' in a generic way... likewise they'd be referring to a .25 pistol and still be calling it a 9mm....

Of course that is not to imply the Captain Rakshit Sharma is not aware...


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Re: Is 9mm an authorised civilian bore??

Postby MoA » Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:50 am

There are about a dozen 9mm pistol cartridges excluding the 9x19 known as 9mm Luger/9mm para.

In India ammo for any of them would probably be an issue.

Take a pick ... and good luck. Now if it were me in India.. I would stick with .32 acp. Since I am not, I will stick with 9x19mm ;)

I would like a 10mm though, but until I can sort out the logistics of reliable bullet sources, and cases, and decent dies... ah well
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Re: Is 9mm an authorised civilian bore??

Postby Baljit » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:04 am

9x19 , 9 Parabellum and 9mm luger are the same bore , nothing defrent , now govt. issue the licence to civilian , my friend just make a licence
Last edited by Baljit on Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is 9mm an authorised civilian bore??

Postby MoA » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:37 am

Baljit,

Not technically correct. Not all 9mm's are created equal.

While one might argue 9x19, 9 Luger, 9 Para, 9 NATO are essentially the same ..

But you also have 9x18, 9.21, 9 Ultra, 9 Bergman, 9x23, 9 Markov, 9 Win Mag, 9 Folbert, etc etc etc etc... excluding the revolver stuff like .38 Special, .41 long colt et al.

And this is excluding +p loadings, which given pressure variance isnt typically the same weapon since not all pistols even in the same caliber can use.
For example my load for 9x19 is a +P and safe in my Cz 75. The same load would probably be very unsafe in a P08.
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Re: Is 9mm an authorised civilian bore??

Postby TwoRivers » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:41 am

There seems to be quite a bit of confusion between "bore" and "cartridge". "9mm" is a generic and nominal term and includes a number of distinctive cartridges with groove diameter close to 9mm, or .354"; which includes nominal 9mm and .357", a.k.a. .38/.380 cartridges, all slightly larger than .354". It even includes the 9x18 Makarov, which has a 9.25mm/.364" groove, and bullet diameter. The Russians designating caliber by the bore diameter, as is correct by convention. They only deviate with their artillery ammunitions. To avoid confusion between shells of the same caliber. By Stalin's order.
9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, 9x19 mm, are one and the same cartridge. Not to be confused with any of the others. Being used by the Indian military, it would be a "PB" cartridge. All the others should be legal for civilians.Cheers.
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Re: Is 9mm an authorised civilian bore??

Postby cottage cheese » Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:12 pm

TwoRivers wrote:There seems to be quite a bit of confusion between "bore" and "cartridge". "9mm" is a generic and nominal term and includes a number of distinctive cartridges with groove diameter close to 9mm, or .354"; which includes nominal 9mm and .357", a.k.a. .38/.380 cartridges, all slightly larger than .354". It even includes the 9x18 Makarov, which has a 9.25mm/.364" groove, and bullet diameter. The Russians designating caliber by the bore diameter, as is correct by convention. They only deviate with their artillery ammunitions. To avoid confusion between shells of the same caliber. By Stalin's order.
9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, 9x19 mm, are one and the same cartridge. Not to be confused with any of the others. Being used by the Indian military, it would be a "PB" cartridge. All the others should be legal for civilians.Cheers.


I wish it was as you mentioned, tworivers,....but the babudom backed by the ridiculous nomenclature and classification in the Arms Act/Rules, would think it apt to think you are engaging in seditious anti national talk or at the very least spreading lies... :)

Drumming sense into them is an avoidable misdirection or energy.
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Re: Is 9mm an authorised civilian bore??

Postby Virendra S Rathore » Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:29 pm

Gentlemen,

I'm a rookie started with an IHP air rifle and am years away from having a license of my own, but I'm just trying to know more.
I've been roaming into numerous posts here and didn't get exactly what I was looking for.
I need to know the (list of) authorized civilian fire-arms allowed to purchase after a default (non PB) license is obtained in India. If it varies per region, lets say smwhere in north India .. Delhi, NCR or Jaipur.
I anticipate that the permissions aren't given in terms of guns, rather they permit the various bores.

Please help.

Thanks,
Virendra
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Re: Is 9mm an authorised civilian bore??

Postby Baljit » Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:18 am

can you guy's tell me how i can up load the picture i have lot's picture
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Re: Is 9mm an authorised civilian bore??

Postby timmy » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:50 am

excluding the revolver stuff like .38 Special, .41 long colt et al.


More as trivia points than anything else, I'd like to point out:

1. 38 Special in old Colt revolvers long used a .354" groove size, rather than the more common .357" When shooting cast bullets in mine (which is all I shoot in them), I use 9mm bullets that are .356" in diameter. As some authorities suggest, I use cast bullets sized to the diameter of the throat of the chambers, which, in the two old Colt DAs in question, is .356"

2. 41 Long Colt is somewhat of a confusing caliber, but in neither case would it qualify as a 9mm caliber. The original version shot a heeled bullet of approximately .41" These were like .22 rimfire bullets, with a heel seated in the case that was smaller in diameter than the front of the bullet. This was how most revolver ammo was made years back. The trouble was, this ammo was outside lubricated, just like .22 rimfire ammo still is. I am old enough to remember the old waxy grease on .22 rimfire ammo, and it has only been in the last few decades that ammo makers have come up with better ways to lubricate these bullets.

In the old days, the outside lubricated bullets were messy and collected dirt, and inside lubricated bullets were developed. They were used in the old cartridge cases, and so a .38 became actually only .357 in diameter. A .44 became only .429 in diameter. But for some reason, Colt didn't do this with the .41 Colt -- either long or short. Instead, they made up an inside lubricated bullet about .386" in diameter and made it with a hollow base, so it would expand to fit the .41 sized barrel of the .41 Colt revolvers, just like the old musket minie balls did. Because of this, the .41 Long Colt revolvers lost popularity, due to the disadvantages of either the old outside lubricated bullets, or the inaccuracy of the hollow base bullets.

(MoA, I know you know this -- I wrote it only because I thought someone reading this thread might be interested.)
Regards,
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Re: Is 9mm an authorised civilian bore??

Postby Virendra S Rathore » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:24 am

Hello everyone,

Chasing an answer for my quest (posted above), I got the following at a thread in Team BHP website where Abhijeet had been posting as well.

"Except for the following which are Prohibited Bores (PB) as they can fire "service ammunition":-
1. 9x19 mm aka 9 Parabellum aka 9 Luger
2. the 9mm Largo (by virtue of guns chambered for it being able to fire the 9x19mm ammo)
3. the .455 Webley (rimmed revolver cartridge)
4. the .38/200 and the .38 S&W
5. the .45 ACP
All the other handgun calibres are classified as Non-prohibited bores. This would include amongst others the .32 ACP, .32 S&W Long, .22 LR, .22 short, .25 ACP, .22 WMR, .357 S&W Magnum, .38 S&W Special, .45 Long Colt, .44 S&W Magnum, .38 ACP, .38 Super, 9mm Kurz (short) aka .380, etc. etc. It is a popular myth that all calibres over .38 are classified as PB in India.
The actual classification as PB is based on whether or not they are in "service" with the security forces (military/ police), it is ONLY these "service calibres" which are classified as PB - a practice dating back to 1907 when the British did not entirely trust their native troops not to black market service ammo, that combined with the fact that they did not want captured government arms to be used against them, led them to classify all service calibres as restricted/ prohibited for general civilian use. An entirely stupid and worthless restriction that doesn't achieve it's stated goals "

I'd be obliged if the gun pundits would like to review this & add or comment to it per their knowledge.
Virendra S Rathore

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Re: Is 9mm an authorised civilian bore??

Postby Virendra S Rathore » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:25 pm

Hello,

Do the members have any thoughts on the post above?
I was thinking may be someone could add up or detail further on this topic.
Perhaps a PB / NPB bores list & follow up discussion here would help many as part of Indian gun GK. :)
It proved to be difficult finding the above via google, but is very useful specially for those who're planning on buying guns soon.
I thought it was a very obvious piece of info to run into and should be readily available, but turned out differently :? .
By the way twitters from us might be knowing that IndiansforGuns is twitting as well now. You may want to join in if you haven't yet.
Virendra S Rathore

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