WW2 1911 .45 CAL Pistol Training

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WW2 1911 .45 CAL Pistol Training

Post by Vikram » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:04 am

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Re: WW2 1911 .45 CAL Pistol Training

Post by asifalikhanasif » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:53 am

Very informative
Thanks for sharing
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Re: WW2 1911 .45 CAL Pistol Training

Post by Vineet » Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:05 pm

Excellent video but I would like to add that nowadays this grip is used
C9E26F71-751E-4F65-A8C3-5A0DC8AFF05B.jpeg

and not this as shown in the video
DF45CDFC-6A3D-4643-9826-B9526A17AAC1.jpeg

I think one can get firm grip with both the styles but some things changes with time.
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Re: WW2 1911 .45 CAL Pistol Training

Post by winnie_the_pooh » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:04 pm

Not relevant to shooting by the vast majority of arms licensees in India.

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Re: WW2 1911 .45 CAL Pistol Training

Post by Shivakr » Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:49 am

I have read in several forums many shooters use Weihrauch HW45 Air Pistol for training to shot 1911.

One such link: https://www.gunnerforum.com/threads/1911-air-gun.15346/

I have placed an order for HW45 hopefully will receive the same in next few weeks..

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Re: WW2 1911 .45 CAL Pistol Training

Post by timmy » Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:11 am

Very interesting, Vikram, and still, I think, a useful video. Thank you for posting it.

Recognizing that the handgun doesn't account for a large percentage of enemy casualties in battle, The amount of training an ordinary soldier might expect to receive has its limits. This video is oriented toward training a large number of men in a short time some kind of basic proficiency in the use of a sidearm. It would mirror the sort of training a casual civilian user ought to consider today.

Of course, with the current limitation of today's ammo quotas, only limited training can be accomplished. But, one can still practice the positions and, with an airgun, a few of the techniques presented here if one wishes to become a little more capable. It's not ideal, sure, but every little bit can help orient the odds in one's favor.

Of course, there are new methods in vogue today, many years after this video was made. Such techniques were and are taught at places like Gunsite, Arizona, USA. This training is very expensive. I don't argue with the fact that the training and techniques presented there or places like it is useful, and "better" than what's presented in this video . . .

BUT!!!

Most people who own handguns, even in the USA, don't get any kind of training at all!

Just practicing the simple things presented here, such as how to hold the weapon, and practicing the assumption of the positions, or even just the standing position alone, would be helpful, and it would constitute the basics one would need to know and have assimilated before more advanced training would be useful.

In other words, all of us who carry or otherwise use a handgun for protection could profit from this video and the basics that it presents. That was the purpose for which it was made.
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Re: WW2 1911 .45 CAL Pistol Training

Post by winnie_the_pooh » Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:18 pm

winnie_the_pooh wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:04 pm
Not relevant to shooting by the vast majority of arms licensees in India.
....since their target is the sky

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Re: WW2 1911 .45 CAL Pistol Training

Post by Vineet » Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:54 pm

winnie_the_pooh wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:18 pm
....since their target is the sky
Target should change now as celebratory firing has been made punishable.
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Re: WW2 1911 .45 CAL Pistol Training

Post by Vikram » Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:10 am

timmy wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:11 am
Very interesting, Vikram, and still, I think, a useful video. Thank you for posting it.

Recognizing that the handgun doesn't account for a large percentage of enemy casualties in battle, The amount of training an ordinary soldier might expect to receive has its limits. This video is oriented toward training a large number of men in a short time some kind of basic proficiency in the use of a sidearm. It would mirror the sort of training a casual civilian user ought to consider today.

Of course, with the current limitation of today's ammo quotas, only limited training can be accomplished. But, one can still practice the positions and, with an airgun, a few of the techniques presented here if one wishes to become a little more capable. It's not ideal, sure, but every little bit can help orient the odds in one's favor.

Of course, there are new methods in vogue today, many years after this video was made. Such techniques were and are taught at places like Gunsite, Arizona, USA. This training is very expensive. I don't argue with the fact that the training and techniques presented there or places like it is useful, and "better" than what's presented in this video . . .

BUT!!!

Most people who own handguns, even in the USA, don't get any kind of training at all!

Just practicing the simple things presented here, such as how to hold the weapon, and practicing the assumption of the positions, or even just the standing position alone, would be helpful, and it would constitute the basics one would need to know and have assimilated before more advanced training would be useful.

In other words, all of us who carry or otherwise use a handgun for protection could profit from this video and the basics that it presents. That was the purpose for which it was made.
Thank you, Tim, for your observations. More than anything, I find these older videos interesting. I think they show us where today's concepts of practical shooting have their roots. How the techniques and principles have evolved.
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Re: WW2 1911 .45 CAL Pistol Training

Post by shooter50 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:44 pm

Nice and very informative video but handgun shooting techniques have evolved and changed considerably since WW II. Now the two handed grip is the preferred option for combat shooting. The single hand grip is not natural and requires extensive practice and forearm strength to master. A 45 ACP or a 9 mm jump hard enough to make accurate combat shooting difficult with the single hand grip for an average shooter. Cowboy, Spy and War movies have iconised the single hand shot but in real life the two hand grip is better.

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Re: WW2 1911 .45 CAL Pistol Training

Post by timmy » Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:41 am

I'd like to preface my remarks with a short story:

Years back, when I participated on other gun forums (indeed, any other web forums, since this is the only one on which I participate now), a fellow in his late 50s asked for shooting help. His eyesight had deteriorated, and he wanted to continue shooting his military surplus rifles,, but didn't want to modify them for mounting a scope. He asked for help, wanting to know whether there was something else he could do to continue shooting his iron sighted rifles. (There are solutions, but they are not perfect.)

There were posts on the thread and then one poster got on to bray that he was 62 years old and had perfect 20-20 vision, and needed no aids or scopes to shoot any rifle well.

I have to admit, this response made me angry, since very few people have 20-20 vision at 62, and his chest-thumping was of no help to the OP's request. It was simply the braying of an old jackass, to put it mildly.

So, as a response, I mentally pictured a scene from an old John Wayne western movie ("She Wore a Yellow Ribbon"), in which Victor McClaglen played a boasting rough Irish sergeant, and wrote his lines in response to this braggart, "I once swam the English Channel -- with an anvil on me chest!"

Since then, I've had more occasion to think about other people and how to consider their situations in conversation, including ones on internet forums. We are not all the same.

Personally, I'm a rather large person, not in height, but somewhat stocky. I have large hands, which means that pistols and revolvers fit me differently. For instance, while one complaint about shooting 1911s is that the grip is too large, making the pistol hard to control, I find that it fits me better than any other handgun I've ever handled.

Shooting very hot 45 Colt loads out of my Ruger Blackhawk, or handloads from my brother's S&W 44 mag Model 29 don't particularly bother me.

Being at the range and working up the hottest loads for a Remington 721 in 300 H&H or a Marlin 1895 lever gun in 45-70 were things I liked to do, in spite of the tears running down my cheeks after a few rounds of either.

Now, I don't particularly care for that sort of thing. I find lots of pleasure shooting very mild 38 Special and 45 Auto loads -- loads hot enough to make sure the bullets exit the barrel. I still shoot 7.62x25, 32 Auto, and 9mm loaded to factory strength (I've got a good supply of Romanian 7.62x25 that's actually pretty hot) so I can talk about what shooting these sorts of things are like.

For me. But I can't say how anyone else would feel about shooting them or other guns and cartridges. I've learned this over the years, so I try to avoid it.

I would say, if someone has an interest in shooting something, go and do it, if you have the opportunity. You'll really never know what it's like until you try. Sometimes, you will find something you'll like, and sometimes, you won't.

Once, I was in my friend's gun shop many years back in Montana. A fellow came in with his friends and bought a brand new Ruger #1 single shot rifle in 375 H&H -- yes, the big cartridge -- in the "Safari" grade Ruger offered. (Note that the stock design of the Ruger #1 is often considered to not be "kind" to shoot in large calibers. Mine's in 270, and it will recoil, but it's not at all bad for me -- which says nothing about what this guy experienced, touching off that 375 cannon.)

A couple of months later, I was in the rifle shop and noticed the Ruger on the sales rack. As it had gorgeously figured wood, there was no mistaking that it was the same rifle. John (the owner) and I talked about it for a bit, and he brought out the box of ammo the buyer had turned in with the rifle. There were about 15 unfired rounds in the box. It was evident that only a very little bit of shooting was necessary to convince the fellow that the 375 H&H was not for him!

But again, people are different, and guns are different. Recoil in handguns is different from recoil in rifles and shotguns. What does this mean for you?

I'd say, if you want to shoot a 1911, go for it. You may like it, you may not. Part of the recoil experience with a 1911 is the slide coming back after firing -- the recoil isn't all from shooting the cartridge itself. All of this going on in your hand means that your hold on the weapon needs to be secure. That's one thing I liked about this old video: it showed clearly that, after safety, holding the pistol properly was a key factor in mastering it, large hands or small.

Lots of 1911s have all kinds of gadgets: extended "beavertail" grip safeties to keep the thumb web from being pinched, extended safeties that are more easily operated, and/or are ambidexerous, and so forth. For myself, I like the neoprene Pachmyer grips (which I also have on a Colt Detective Special revolver). They aren't "sticky", but they stick the weapon in my hands so well. All of the rest of those gadgets, I don't need or bother with.

But that's not say you will like Pachmyer grips, or won't need or want the gadgets. You will hear all sorts of people howling about the necessity of that stuff, but again, you'll just have to find out for yourself, whether or not any of this stuff is helpful for you.

For me, double action revolvers fit my hand better than single action revolvers do. Many pistols aren't so great: for instance, a Browning 9mm Hi Power, with its staggered high capacity magazine, has a short but wide grip in my hand: rather than being long and somewhat thin, it feels "square" to me. "Star" or Tokarev pattern pistols are awkward, as they are short in my hand, and have a near 90* angle to the barrel, which cocks my wrist at an awkward angle to keep from naturally shooting low. The Czech CZ52 is long in my hand, but too perpendicular to the gun, like the Star. Snubbies are said to really kick in one's hand, but I haven't found them to be objectionable.

But again, these are only my experiences and impressions. If you want to know for yourself, you have to try it out for yourself.

Regarding a 1911, you know what people say. Be aware of this, but there's no need to be afraid. You don't know what your own experience will be. As for 9mm, they don't have the recoil of a 1911, but shooting this cartridge in a compact version with small grips may change one's impression -- or not. It depends on you, as to whether it will be objectionable or not.

I would favor advising all to take an "open" approach to all of this business. Try it out for yourselves, to see whether it's your cup of tea or not. As the English would say, "the proof of the pudding is in the tasting."

Regarding the one handed hold, I almost always do shoot one handed, no matter whether I'm shooting big boomers or target loads. My Dad was a shot of some renown in the Army, and that's what he taught me -- just exactly like what you see in this video. I mostly shoot "bullseye". I have done varmint shooting, and do that with one hand, as well. I have done a little "combat" style shooting -- I'd agree that the two-handed grip shown in this video has been superceded by better methods. I do practice some two-handed holds with the 32 Auto and the 38 Special snubbie, but as I'm primarily interested in bullseye shooting, I'm a one handed shooter most of the time. (I also always shoot with both eyes open, but that's another subject.)

One thing is for sure: If you shoot handguns at all, you will quickly learn that anything you see in cowboy, spy, and war movies is laughable, as Shooter50 points out. As far as movie value is concerned, you are just as well off rewatching "Quick Gun Murugun". At least he doesn't hold guns sideways like these modern police and gangster movies show! Anyway, I would rather "mind it" with my hero Rajinikanth, but that's another topic altogether.

One thing I would insist is vital, however: When shooting, you must wear eye protection! Hearing protection is a must, as well.
“The principle of self defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi.” - Martin Luther King, Jr.

“When someone shows you who they are, believe them.” - Maya Angelou

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Re: WW2 1911 .45 CAL Pistol Training

Post by Vikram » Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:09 pm

timmy wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:41 am
I'd like to preface my remarks with a short story:

Years back, when I participated on other gun forums (indeed, any other web forums, since this is the only one on which I participate now), a fellow in his late 50s asked for shooting help. His eyesight had deteriorated, and he wanted to continue shooting his military surplus rifles,, but didn't want to modify them for mounting a scope. He asked for help, wanting to know whether there was something else he could do to continue shooting his iron sighted rifles. (There are solutions, but they are not perfect.)

There were posts on the thread and then one poster got on to bray that he was 62 years old and had perfect 20-20 vision, and needed no aids or scopes to shoot any rifle well.

I have to admit, this response made me angry, since very few people have 20-20 vision at 62, and his chest-thumping was of no help to the OP's request. It was simply the braying of an old jackass, to put it mildly.

So, as a response, I mentally pictured a scene from an old John Wayne western movie ("She Wore a Yellow Ribbon"), in which Victor McClaglen played a boasting rough Irish sergeant, and wrote his lines in response to this braggart, "I once swam the English Channel -- with an anvil on me chest!"

Since then, I've had more occasion to think about other people and how to consider their situations in conversation, including ones on internet forums. We are not all the same.

Personally, I'm a rather large person, not in height, but somewhat stocky. I have large hands, which means that pistols and revolvers fit me differently. For instance, while one complaint about shooting 1911s is that the grip is too large, making the pistol hard to control, I find that it fits me better than any other handgun I've ever handled.

Shooting very hot 45 Colt loads out of my Ruger Blackhawk, or handloads from my brother's S&W 44 mag Model 29 don't particularly bother me.

Being at the range and working up the hottest loads for a Remington 721 in 300 H&H or a Marlin 1895 lever gun in 45-70 were things I liked to do, in spite of the tears running down my cheeks after a few rounds of either.

Now, I don't particularly care for that sort of thing. I find lots of pleasure shooting very mild 38 Special and 45 Auto loads -- loads hot enough to make sure the bullets exit the barrel. I still shoot 7.62x25, 32 Auto, and 9mm loaded to factory strength (I've got a good supply of Romanian 7.62x25 that's actually pretty hot) so I can talk about what shooting these sorts of things are like.

For me. But I can't say how anyone else would feel about shooting them or other guns and cartridges. I've learned this over the years, so I try to avoid it.

I would say, if someone has an interest in shooting something, go and do it, if you have the opportunity. You'll really never know what it's like until you try. Sometimes, you will find something you'll like, and sometimes, you won't.

Once, I was in my friend's gun shop many years back in Montana. A fellow came in with his friends and bought a brand new Ruger #1 single shot rifle in 375 H&H -- yes, the big cartridge -- in the "Safari" grade Ruger offered. (Note that the stock design of the Ruger #1 is often considered to not be "kind" to shoot in large calibers. Mine's in 270, and it will recoil, but it's not at all bad for me -- which says nothing about what this guy experienced, touching off that 375 cannon.)

A couple of months later, I was in the rifle shop and noticed the Ruger on the sales rack. As it had gorgeously figured wood, there was no mistaking that it was the same rifle. John (the owner) and I talked about it for a bit, and he brought out the box of ammo the buyer had turned in with the rifle. There were about 15 unfired rounds in the box. It was evident that only a very little bit of shooting was necessary to convince the fellow that the 375 H&H was not for him!

But again, people are different, and guns are different. Recoil in handguns is different from recoil in rifles and shotguns. What does this mean for you?

I'd say, if you want to shoot a 1911, go for it. You may like it, you may not. Part of the recoil experience with a 1911 is the slide coming back after firing -- the recoil isn't all from shooting the cartridge itself. All of this going on in your hand means that your hold on the weapon needs to be secure. That's one thing I liked about this old video: it showed clearly that, after safety, holding the pistol properly was a key factor in mastering it, large hands or small.

Lots of 1911s have all kinds of gadgets: extended "beavertail" grip safeties to keep the thumb web from being pinched, extended safeties that are more easily operated, and/or are ambidexerous, and so forth. For myself, I like the neoprene Pachmyer grips (which I also have on a Colt Detective Special revolver). They aren't "sticky", but they stick the weapon in my hands so well. All of the rest of those gadgets, I don't need or bother with.

But that's not say you will like Pachmyer grips, or won't need or want the gadgets. You will hear all sorts of people howling about the necessity of that stuff, but again, you'll just have to find out for yourself, whether or not any of this stuff is helpful for you.

For me, double action revolvers fit my hand better than single action revolvers do. Many pistols aren't so great: for instance, a Browning 9mm Hi Power, with its staggered high capacity magazine, has a short but wide grip in my hand: rather than being long and somewhat thin, it feels "square" to me. "Star" or Tokarev pattern pistols are awkward, as they are short in my hand, and have a near 90* angle to the barrel, which cocks my wrist at an awkward angle to keep from naturally shooting low. The Czech CZ52 is long in my hand, but too perpendicular to the gun, like the Star. Snubbies are said to really kick in one's hand, but I haven't found them to be objectionable.

But again, these are only my experiences and impressions. If you want to know for yourself, you have to try it out for yourself.

Regarding a 1911, you know what people say. Be aware of this, but there's no need to be afraid. You don't know what your own experience will be. As for 9mm, they don't have the recoil of a 1911, but shooting this cartridge in a compact version with small grips may change one's impression -- or not. It depends on you, as to whether it will be objectionable or not.

I would favor advising all to take an "open" approach to all of this business. Try it out for yourselves, to see whether it's your cup of tea or not. As the English would say, "the proof of the pudding is in the tasting."

Regarding the one handed hold, I almost always do shoot one handed, no matter whether I'm shooting big boomers or target loads. My Dad was a shot of some renown in the Army, and that's what he taught me -- just exactly like what you see in this video. I mostly shoot "bullseye". I have done varmint shooting, and do that with one hand, as well. I have done a little "combat" style shooting -- I'd agree that the two-handed grip shown in this video has been superceded by better methods. I do practice some two-handed holds with the 32 Auto and the 38 Special snubbie, but as I'm primarily interested in bullseye shooting, I'm a one handed shooter most of the time. (I also always shoot with both eyes open, but that's another subject.)

One thing is for sure: If you shoot handguns at all, you will quickly learn that anything you see in cowboy, spy, and war movies is laughable, as Shooter50 points out. As far as movie value is concerned, you are just as well off rewatching "Quick Gun Murugun". At least he doesn't hold guns sideways like these modern police and gangster movies show! Anyway, I would rather "mind it" with my hero Rajinikanth, but that's another topic altogether.

One thing I would insist is vital, however: When shooting, you must wear eye protection! Hearing protection is a must, as well.
There are many insights in there. Unless one doesn't try, one does not learn.
It ain’t over ’til it’s over! "Rocky,Rocky,Rocky....."

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Re: WW2 1911 .45 CAL Pistol Training

Post by ckkalyan » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:08 am

Nice share Vikram!

timmy Great thoughts on the try and see what happens approach - this is not limited to firearms but extends to life as well!

I agree that most firearms owners/users do not get as much training and practice as they should; even for basic ownership use. We could all do with frequent and escalated training.

I also love and follow the concept of KAIZEN - Constant, Continuous Improvement!
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