Malhotrasons Defence .45 1911 pistol pictures (Made in India)

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Re: Malhotrasons Defence .45 1911 pistol pictures (Made in India)

Post by timmy » Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:57 am

Vineet wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:40 pm
shooter50 wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:11 pm
In the Indian context (since 9mm is PB) you would be much better off with a 25 or a 32 automatic or maybe you want show off your 45 Auto without ever shooting with it. 😁😁
.25 ACP is a bit smaller caliber but .32 is ok for self defence. Also if you carry everyday, you will realise that it’s a pain to carry a big pistol like full size 1911.

I find Ashani (IOF pistol) size as perfect size for everyday carry.
These are very good points you make, Vineet:

The Ashani size is very good for everyday concealed carry. The thing about this is that now, 9 mm pistols are available and common in a similar size, and many have composite frames that make them light as a feather to carry. The problem here, of course, is that such a choice is not available in India. This is why I welcome cartridges like the 327 Magnum and the 30 Super Carry: they offer the advantages of larger cartridges in smaller or more efficient packages. For instance, an Ashani sized pistol with a locking breech in 30 Super Carry is totally doable, and the Ruger six shot snubbie in 327 is also an ideal carry gun, as well. A new Ashani in double action or with a safe safety that allows "cocked and locked" carry would easily be incorporated into such a new design, there'd be no issues with PB, and there are plenty of examples on the global market from which to derive design precedents. Kel-Tec makes a very affordable 32 Auto that's locked breech, and thus has even lower recoil than most 32s, for instance.

When I was young, I did carry my 1911 concealed, but it is large, requiring constant attention, and it is fairly heavy. I did not find recoil objectionable, either, but then I did do a lot of shooting -- practice can overcome many things, even though I have always found shooting a 1911 pleasant, speaking for myself. Size of gun and recoil, however, aren't so much of an issue in 9 mm, and now the new bullet technology gives the 9 mm similar performance as the 45 Auto. If a person is small or thin, and wearing thin clothes, then a 1911 style has some downsides. Even with a loose shirt (a thin one), there's always going to be the risk of the gun printing, and then there's the issue of a holster.

For Indian situations, the 32 Auto is the way to go -- it can work if one is familiar. Also, I would choose 25 Auto over 22 LR because it is more reliable in feeding and firing (assuming the gun is capable), but the 22 LR has a two very powerful arguments going for it: price and availability.

Doing what you can with what is available is key, along with as much useful practice as possible. Don't forget that, especially with a large gun like a 1911 or a full size revolver, a holster is a necessity. The availability of a holster that allows ready access and minimizes printing is a key issue here, and I'm assuming Ashanis do have reasonably useful holsters available.

A 25 - sized pistol has less problems in the printing / concealing department, but having something in your pocket like this may not give ready access. If the gun is at the bottom of a deep pocket, or it becomes turned around so that you will never know which end you're going to grab, that is a problem. If the gun doesn't have a good safety and you have to carry without a round in the chamber and must rack the slide to bring the gun into action, that's an issue, too.

Right now, even with the new guns that are rumored or said to be coming on the market soon, none of them offers a different solution to what's already available. If you get a Webley, for instance, the carry issues you face will be the same as with an IOF 32. Similarly, the carry issues one faces with these rumored new 32 Auto pistols aren't really different from those that are associated with an Ashani. This 45 Auto talked about in this thread will present a whole 'nother set of problems if concealed carry is the purpose.

I very much understand the line of thought that goes, "I can make do with a 1911" because I have done it. Several hours of standing and sitting in the hot sun with a hammer spur in your side, especially if you carry cocked and locked, and maybe you will have a different idea. As the saying goes, a person who is putting on the harness always has a different point of view than the person who is taking off the harness.

From a personal perspective:

When i was young, i did carry a 25 Auto in my pants pocket. My observations are based on those experiences.

Today, I mostly carry a CZ 70 32 Auto (very similar to a Walther PPK) in a Galco Royal Guard inside-the-waistband holster. As I'm 115 kilos, I don't have printing problems and the gun is very comfortable to carry all day, in and out of the car, despite being an all steel gun.

Sometimes I carry a Chinese "Star" 9 mm pistol in an outside-the-waistband "pancake" type holster I bought from Russia a few years back. This is also a pretty easy gun for me to carry concealed. It's much more powerful than 32 Auto, but can't be carried safely with a round in the chamber, so it is mostly carried when I'll be in the car or headed to the range.

Every now and then, I carry my Colt Detective Special 38 double action in a Galco thumb-break "pancake" holster. Galco makes nice factory made holsters; one might do better with a custom made holster or not, but that's an expensive route to go. I picked up this holster practically brand new on eBay for $45, because not very many people use Detective Specials. (If it had been a 1911 holster, it would have been bid up to much more.) The gun doesn't print badly and is quite comfortable to wear (you get what you pay for!) but I don't like risking the loss of it, so I don't carry it often at all. If I didn't worry about losing it in some incident, it would be my full time carry choice.

So, my carry experience pretty much matches that of anyone here, regarding 32 Auto. The CZ 70 is much safer to carry than an Ashani, and the holster is about the best for the purpose. i used to carry it with 60 grain CorBon loads, but now use Fiocchi and RWS FMJ, because they will give the required penetration, which any expanding 32 Auto load cannot.
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Re: Malhotrasons Defence .45 1911 pistol pictures (Made in India)

Post by EkManushya » Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:18 am

winnie_the_pooh wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:41 pm
Tried seeing the entire video of the review by the 'National Shooter' twice. However it requires more patience than I possess to listen to this 'expert'.
"Machining has been done by Haas." Indeed
Aksharma.kaplish wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:35 pm
winnie_the_pooh wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:41 pm
Tried seeing the entire video of the review by the 'National Shooter' twice. However it requires more patience than I possess to listen to this 'expert'.
"Machining has been done by Haas." Indeed
Yea ...it looks like this dude was running an ad campaign for the company
there are many so-called gun experts out there on social media who are praising it like it is the best thing to happen to India - "best international standards material is used in it and all international standards are followed. just look at it, its awesome......" and the rant continues

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Re: Malhotrasons Defence .45 1911 pistol pictures (Made in India)

Post by vpsparihar » Fri Apr 22, 2022 5:24 pm

Glock is also setting their manufacturing unit in Tiruvallur District, Tamil Nadu . Lets see their pricing

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Re: Malhotrasons Defence .45 1911 pistol pictures (Made in India)

Post by EkManushya » Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:02 pm

vpsparihar wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 5:24 pm
Glock is also setting their manufacturing unit in Tiruvallur District, Tamil Nadu . Lets see their pricing
so sorry mate but that we have been listening for some 2 years or more (veterans / experts here may be knowing better) but if i remember correctly, since year, they have not responded to any customer. no one has any idea when they will start responding or start talking about any timeline for it.

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Re: Malhotrasons Defence .45 1911 pistol pictures (Made in India)

Post by Crazygunlover » Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:18 am

Paid promotion by national shooter for their brand promotion....now I have heard they have decreased their prices to 3.80 plus gst

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Re: Malhotrasons Defence .45 1911 pistol pictures (Made in India)

Post by Aksharma.kaplish » Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:40 pm

Crazygunlover wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:18 am
Paid promotion by national shooter for their brand promotion....now I have heard they have decreased their prices to 3.80 plus gst
If any company wants volume sales they need to bring the price less than 2 lkh including gst ..also the ammo should be easily available at a reasonable price which i dnt see happening anytime sooner.

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Re: Malhotrasons Defence .45 1911 pistol pictures (Made in India)

Post by Crazygunlover » Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:23 pm

This person MSD guardian 1911 is looting the persons with monopoly by charging 7 to 9 lacs through its dealer network ...to which he knows very well that they are earning huge premium ...but the fact is that he himself is involved in that network .why he is not blacklisting such dealers who are selling his products overated...he himself is involved in black marketing and considering himself as a white collar while accusing its dealer network ....when the other international brands start selling their products in near future than he will also depreciate it's product value to 1.5 to 2 lac ...than what will happen with the buyers who are purchasing the same products between 7 to 9 lacs of price .... Glock,webley 45 ,tauras,vinvelli and rock Island Armoury is itself ready and planning to enter the same market segment with the fair value of the products with warranty ranging from 10 years to lifetime warranty ...than can Malhotra sons defence company can assure u that they will buy back their products with a depreciation value of 10 to 20 percent at that scenario .... MSD is an indian brand selling at much higher prices due to monopolistic condition ... And the main question also arise that the only 50 pieces delivered by them can actually tell you the quality , the performance of the pistol ,many users are comparing it with brands that are already sold in US markets and abroad ..also just fixing cheap accessories like mag extendor ,magloader, torch,sites , and creating puninsher and victim series will add 1 to 2 lacs to pistol is justified ....it is only happening coz most of our indians are only iof pistols and revolvers and they are so obscete and our indian ordnance engineers have never adapted international standards in the manufacturing of the same ...in Hindi there is a proverb' aandhon mein kaana raja' in current situation MSD guardian 1911 pistol is the only kaana raja' ...it can't be sold in any international market for more than 150 to 200 dollars ..it's not a new discovery from an indian company ...it's a 1911 old model ......112 years old approximately from now ....... Plz think and just compel then to sale these product at fair valuation of Rs 1 lac to 1.5 lac

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Re: Malhotrasons Defence .45 1911 pistol pictures (Made in India)

Post by rs123in » Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:39 am

EkManushya wrote:
Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:18 am
winnie_the_pooh wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:41 pm
Tried seeing the entire video of the review by the 'National Shooter' twice. However it requires more patience than I possess to listen to this 'expert'.
"Machining has been done by Haas." Indeed
Aksharma.kaplish wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:35 pm
winnie_the_pooh wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:41 pm
Tried seeing the entire video of the review by the 'National Shooter' twice. However it requires more patience than I possess to listen to this 'expert'.
"Machining has been done by Haas." Indeed
Yea ...it looks like this dude was running an ad campaign for the company
there are many so-called gun experts out there on social media who are praising it like it is the best thing to happen to India - "best international standards material is used in it and all international standards are followed. just look at it, its awesome......" and the rant continues
I think, my channel is only one to upload a critical analysis of MSD 1911. Most people have gone berserk, celebrating production of a 110 year old design in India, that too 10 times more expensive than international counterparts. God bless our IQ/EQ.

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Re: Malhotrasons Defence .45 1911 pistol pictures (Made in India)

Post by rs123in » Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:41 am



Here is another video to amplify recoil issue. Although hurriedly made, due to paucity of time. I do it as a hobby.

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Re: Malhotrasons Defence .45 1911 pistol pictures (Made in India)

Post by timmy » Sun Apr 24, 2022 3:42 am

Regarding recoil, calculating by using the mass of the bullet and its velocity is not going to yield a correct result of felt recoil. Such a calculation would work for a revolver or single shot sort of gun, but blowback and recoil operated actions are different.

First of all, the bullet has left the barrel before the action is unlocked in a 1911. Operating the action by hand to see when the barrel unlocks from the slide shows that the bullet has left when the slide and barrel have recoiled rearward only a small distance.

Second of all, applying Newton's equal reaction is not that straightforward. The reaction to the bullet being fired is NOT transmitted directly back to the hand. The reaction is transmitted to the slide and locked barrel. There is a slight amount of recoil that IS transmitted to the hand through the recoil spring: the force that's compressing the recoil spring has to be offset on the other end of the spring that's held by the frame, and this IS transmitted to the hand. Thus, a heavier recoil spring will transmit somewhat more felt recoil to the hand than a lighter one for this reason.

However, the MAIN felt recoil in a 1911 is caused by the slide hitting its rearward travel. At this point (and not when the bullet is fired) is the energy in the slide transmitted to the frame, and then to the hand -- but NOT ALL the energy is!

Some energy is imparted to the barrel as it rotates downward on its pivot and link, and that energy is dissipated when the barrel strikes the frame in a somewhat downward motion.

Some energy is absorbed by the recoil spring as it is compressed by the recoiling slide. Most of this energy is recovered when the recoil spring expands after the slide is stopped and returns the slide back into battery. When the slide returns to battery, it is stopped and then that return energy has an anti-recoil effect on the frame and the hand which is holding it. Simply holding the 1911 with the slide locked back and releasing it with the thumb will demonstrate this.

So, the calculation that is of greatest interest to the consideration of felt recoil is the energy contained in the recoiling slide striking its stop, which is then transmitted through the frame and then to the hand.

This is not straightforward, as in a revolver, where the energy pushing the gun in recoil is equal to the energy applied to the bullet traveling out of the barrel.

The inertia of the slide and barrel (associated with the mass of both), the energy absorbed by the semiautomatic action (friction of slide and other moving parts incurred from unlocking and relocking the action), along with what is lost as heat in the compression and expansion of the recoil spring), the energy it takes to cock the hammer, and the energy it takes to eject the empty case and strip a fresh round from the magazine and chamber it all figure into felt recoil. Remember, the energy that is required to do all of these things must come from somewhere, and that energy only has one source: the equal and opposite reaction obtained from propelling the bullet out of the barrel at a given velocity. Restating again, this is not straightforward, as in a revolver.

That this recoil IS affected by the locking action is shown by the fact that different weights of recoil springs affect felt recoil, and by the fact that, all other things being equal (cartridge, load intensity, bullet weight, etc.) a straight blowback action has more felt recoil than a short recoil system such as used in the 1911. This fact is taken advantage of by the gunmaker Kel Tec. They use a locked breech recoil system in their tiny composite frame 32 Auto "mouse gun" to reduce the effects of recoil in this lightweight gun to a minimum.

Then, other issues also come into play, such as the height of the barrel axis above the hand, shape of the grip, and such.

I do not accept the premise that the 1911's single action is inferior to double action firing. I agree it is different, but each has its advantages.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the single action CAN afford a better trigger feel, if it is implemented correctly. For instance, on this point, consider the Browning Hi Power, which notoriously does not have the crisp trigger feel of a 1911. This is because the 1911 trigger acts directly to push against the sear, while in a Hi Power, the trigger has to act through levers -- additional mechanism that adds a "mushy" feeling.

A double action can never have the same feel, because the shooter must cock the firing mechanism by pulling the trigger, before firing. Compressing the firing mechanism with the trigger finger can never be as light, smooth, and uncluttered with mechanical tomfoolery as the supposedly more primative single action, which automatically cocks the firing mechanism for the shooter.

While the single action does have to be carried cocked in order to be safe, a PROPERLY DESIGNED safety eliminates this problem and incurrs no penalty of delay if a small amount of training is applied.

The double action does have an advantage if a misfire is encountered, as the trigger can be squeezed again for a restrike in that case, instead of a manual recock being necessary, as in a single action. However, if the round is a dud, both must have the slide worked in order to chamber another round. (A double action revolver is superior in this situation, however the best way to address this is with reliable ammunition in the first place.)

One issue regarding this discussion has to do with the 9 mm versus the 45 Auto argument. This has raged for years, but the development of effective expanding bullets (at handgun velocities) has pretty much put this argument into the shade. Even the USA's FBI has, after having 10 mm rounds developed, settled on the 9 mm for an effective defensive load.

The 1911 is over a century old, and not being made partially of composites, is heavy, and it is large. Is it still relevant? Ask the target shooter, or the person fated to stand in front of one being discharged. Unlike the great majority of weapons from the past, it is still an effective answer in some uses.

Personally, I find that the "longer" grip of a 1911 fits my hand better than the more "square" grip of a double stack magazine 9 mm, such as is used in the Hi Power and the guns of that type that have followed it. Larger hands can, and in my case do, affored less sensitivity to recoil, the complaint about which I do understand. If you don't like it, you don't like it. In some cases, I think that this is related to a lack of training, but that's not for me to judge. Again, if you don't like it, you don't like it. For me, shooting a 1911 is one of the very great pleasures in life, in shooting, and in shooting handguns. This makes it a good choice for me at the same time it may not be a good choice for someone else.

All this is to say, if someone says they don't like a 1911, that I can accept. If someone wants to rubbish it, I will not accept that as being too narrow of an interpretation of the design. It still is relevant today in some instances and to some people, and it's not for others to denigrate the judgment of others as to what is best for them.

My 1911 would be one of the last firearms I'd part with, but in the Indian context, I will admit that I'd probably not have gotten one, given the two gun restriction, the ammo restrictions, and the availability of gun and ammo. Were this my situation, I would likely go with an Ashani worked over by a competent gunsmith to correct the problems left in it by the bedpan mechanics who built it. But if someone wants a 1911, far be it from me to criticize them on some sort of technical grounds -- i don't consider my preferences, opinions, and arguments as always applying to someone else's situation.

Regarding the iteration of the 1911 addressed in this thread, however, I'd say it was very overpriced and the sales effort by the national shooter to try to sell it leaves me quite underwhelmed.
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Re: Malhotrasons Defence .45 1911 pistol pictures (Made in India)

Post by Vineet » Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:12 pm

Crazygunlover wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:18 am
Paid promotion by national shooter for their brand promotion....now I have heard they have decreased their prices to 3.80 plus gst
Legit price is 4.05 lacs for the starting model including gst. Currently there is black marketing going on and it’s available for around 6 lacs.

3.80 plus gst amounts to 4.86 lacs which is not true.
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Re: Malhotrasons Defence .45 1911 pistol pictures (Made in India)

Post by Crazygunlover » Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:29 pm

Kindly recheck price with malhotrasons company ..now there current prices for basic model are 3.80 + gst

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Re: Malhotrasons Defence .45 1911 pistol pictures (Made in India)

Post by Kittu » Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:45 pm

Private firearm manufactures in india are not going to survive when there so much restrictions in obtaining a license.Why would one invest money in a dead business and there are lots of companies who have been granted manufacturing firearm license in last 3,4 years and all have invested money in it.
they need experience to buy IOF factories and make weapons for army later.

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Re: Malhotrasons Defence .45 1911 pistol pictures (Made in India)

Post by timmy » Fri Apr 29, 2022 1:53 am

I think that's a valid analysis. Cutting the limitation of ownership from 3 to 2 guns is not helpful, but the possibility of this limit being reduced to one has been swirling, and that's not going to make possible investors comfortable with putting money into new facilities and arrangements.

I would also expect that possible Indian manufacturers and Indian parters of foreign manufacturers know how easy it is for a person to get a license, and whether this process is getting easier or harder. Someone involved, in other words, has their finger on the pulse of the gun ownership situation, and anyone contemplating getting into the market is going to factor that in to any decisions they make, if they are wise. That's what we would do in their shoes!
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Re: Malhotrasons Defence .45 1911 pistol pictures (Made in India)

Post by Aksharma.kaplish » Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:55 am

ashokgodara wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:45 pm
Private firearm manufactures in india are not going to survive when there so much restrictions in obtaining a license.Why would one invest money in a dead business and there are lots of companies who have been granted manufacturing firearm license in last 3,4 years and all have invested money in it.
they need experience to buy IOF factories and make weapons for army later.

For any business to be profitable in india the product has to be affordable and value for money. Also if companies are producing the lesser used calibre as their main weapon, then also they will end up losing money. These companies should have launched a .32 bore weapon or .22 bore weapon first at a reasonable price and only then they should experiment in other forms. Most people would buy an ashani and get it modified from a good gunsmith instead of paying upwards of 3-4 lakhs.

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