ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

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indogunfreak
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ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by indogunfreak » Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:19 pm

Dear Fellow Gunlovers,

I attended the Shotshow 2022 in Las Vegas this January and my question to almost every renowned firearms manufacturer was about their India plans. I had a chance to speak with the president of Armscor (Rock Island Armory) Martin Tuason, I was keen to find out about their plans for the Indian market and was pleasantly surprised to discover that Armscor (Rock Island Armory) have signed a joint collaboration agreement with an Indian company and working full speed to bring firearms to the India market. The news coming right from the horse's mouth is definitely worth sharing and what place could be better than this forum right here. Armscor team was lip-tight about any more discussions but they shared that they intend to launch commercially by the end of 2022.

Rock Island Armory 1911s are pretty popular in the United States with affordable price tag. I will love to have my hands on them. Comments welcome!

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IGF :cheers:

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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by EkManushya » Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:46 pm

that is good news but as per the current scenario, "affordable price" is a prohibited phrase to be used in this context in our country.

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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by timmy » Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:52 am

We've discussed Armscor on these boards in the past, and I've done so several times, myself.

While not the "top end" of the market, their products seem to be serviceable and sturdy, and I would consider buying one. Were Armscor to come to India, I think that would be a good thing, and if the prices were in line with what I've seen them selling for, I seriously doubt whether IOF or Webley would sell a single product from Armscor's entry into the market.

Over the past few years, we've heard of intentions to enter the Indian market being voiced or rumored by and about a number of companies.

If only a fraction of these events were to actually take place, how wonderful that would be!
timmy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:46 am
Brothers:

I'm presenting this post, not to state an alternative (unfortunately) for the Indian firearms market, but to show what ought to be possible. The subject of this post is the Armscor 38 Special revolver that is available in the USA, marketed by Rock Island Arsenal. This revolver, like other Armscor firearms, is made in the Philippines -- hardly a nation known for a robust industrial base. The underlying point to my post is that surely India could do just as well, if not better, than the Philippines in this area of manufacture and marketing.

Armscor makes revolvers in 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 9mm, and 22. They also have a line of semi-auto pistols, including a 1911 model, and long guns, as well. For this post, I want to comment on their 38/357 line of revolvers, because I would like to have one myself. Please note the list price of these firearms. The 38 Special 4" barrel revolver I'd like has a list price of $249 (₹18502 at today's exchange rate) and they are listed at the local gun store for $229.99 -- just ₹17090 -- today.

Here is the manufacturer's website link to the revolver: https://www.armscor.com/firearms-list/m200-38spl-6rd

These guns are not perfectly finished at this price point, but by all reviews, they are quite serviceable as purchased over the counter. Here is a review from the "American Rifleman" magazine of the snub nose version of this revolver. There are other reviews of these guns online, but in this dismal world of fanboy advertising cloaked as a magazine review, this one contained the best analysis that I could find:

(As always, click on the pictures for a larger view!)
Review: Rock Island Armory M206 Revolver

Image

I’m a fan of hard-working .38-cal. revolvers for personal protection. They're reliable, simple to operate and pack a solid level of stopping power when loaded properly. But not everyone who wants a defensive revolver can shell out the kind of cash needed for some models.

Hoping to find a solution to this problem, I’ve spent the last few years looking around various trade shows in search of a useful and affordable new .38 Special or .357 Magnum. I wanted something that could be put to work as a truck gun, a kit gun or fill the important roles of home defense or concealed carry for those who are financially strapped.

For the most part, the fruits of this quest have been disappointing. When looking at new revolvers with prices under $400, some of what you'll find is downright spooky. Poor craftsmanship, mysterious and unidentifiable alloys, and triggers that feel like dragging a chunk of concrete across a sheet of sand paper abound.

Image
The original M200 revolver in the RIA lineup features a 4" barrel and polymer grips.

I had nearly given up on finding an inexpensive revolver worth testing when I stopped by the Armscor USA and Rock Island Armory booth at SHOT Show a few years back. It had slipped my mind that Rock Island's catalog of firearms made in the Philippines contains a couple of revolver models including the 4" barrel M200 and the 2" barrel M206.

I noticed the six-shot .38s this time around because the company had two on display front and center. The representative explained that in addition to the standard Parkerized double-action M206 model, the company was adding spurless double-action-only versions that year in both a Parkerized and satin nickel finish.

Let me be clear with revolver fans who have an eye for aesthetics: the M206 is not going to win any beauty contests. It is a simple, all-steel revolver that sacrifices outward refinements for costs savings. The Parkerized and nickel finishes were properly applied if not necessarily attractive. Opening the cylinder revealed casting and grinder marks that one would not see on more expensive .38s.

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The configuration of the M206 shows a mix of influences. The frame, six-shot cylinder, pull-back cylinder release and old-fashioned checkered wood grip are all reminiscent of the Colt Detective Special. The single-piece 2.15" barrel, which is pinned to the frame, has a fixed front sight and squared off ejector shroud seemingly borrowed from Charter Arms.

The low-mounted, spade-shaped hammer spur of the double-action model is unlike any other modern hammer that I’ve worked with so far. The deeply curved, smooth-faced trigger is housed in a rounded trigger guard. A transfer-bar safety prevents the revolver from firing if bumped or dropped.

I'll freely admit here that my previous experiences with budget-friendly wheelguns have left me feeling a bit jaded. The looks of the M206 revolvers lying there on the table did not exactly cause my heart to race. But my impression of the revolvers changed once I started handling them.

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The problems found in some inexpensive imports were absent in the M206. There was no grit in the cylinder release. The cylinder dropped open smoothly with no binding in the yoke or ejector star. The cylinder spun freely when in the open position. The ejector moved back and forth easily but snapped back into place when released. Only a modest amount of pressure was required to push the cylinder in and out of the frame.

So far, so good. In fact, the M206 was much better than I expected. Now came the moment of truth. Would the trigger cycle cleanly or would it require a one-eyed, spinach eating sailor to cycle? It was good to discover that the triggers of both revolvers were smooth throughout their arch of travel.

The spurred hammer of the double-action model was free of any roughness, swinging back into the cocked position with a distinctive click using a comfortable level of effort. In short, the M206 looked like a plain Jane revolver while behaving like a much more pricey model.

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When a factory-fresh M206 revolver headed my way later, I put it through the same bench checks used at the trade show. It demonstrated the same smooth operation throughout the action and in the trigger. The trigger required 10 lbs. 10 ozs. of trigger pull to cycle in double-action mode and 6 lbs. 2 ozs. of pressure when fired single-action.

Included in the shipment was a good supply of Armscor USA .38 Spl. to break in the gun along with one of the full-size hard black polymer grips usually installed on the 4" barrel M200. I was glad to have the grip, because I found that the long hammer could pinch the web of the shooting hand thumb when the hammer was cocked for single-action fire with the compact wood grip. Installing the polymer grip resolved the problem.

One of the first questions to pop up with modern .38 Spl. revolvers is whether or not they can safely fire +P ammunition. If a .38 Spl. cartridge loaded to SAMMI standard +P levels, it's going to generate somewhere around 9 percent more pressure than a standard load.

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This may not sound like much of an increase but the boost in power causes revolvers to wear out more quickly and, in some cases with weaker or older guns, using +P loads could possibly cause a catastrophic failure.

When I asked the Rock Island representative at the trade show if the M206 is rated for +P ammunition, he said I could go ahead and shoot it. Readers have reported that when they contact Rock Island they get the same answer.

However, if you look at the M206 barrel markings, the owner's manual, and the company website, the gun is referred to as being a “.38 Spl.” with no mention of +P ammunition. On page 5 of the owner's manual it reads, "The M200 REVOLVER is chambered for Cal. .38 Special cartridges manufactured in accordance with standard industry practice." It could be argued that this statement includes SAMMI specification +P loads, but it's not very specific.

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Other revolver manufacturer's who rate their revolvers as +P, including Ruger, Smith & Wesson and Charter Arms, come right out and say it by writing “.38 Spl. +P” in their product descriptions and barrel markings. So when it came time to test the M206, I opted to work with standard pressure loads.

At the shooting range, the M206 six-shot was an enjoyable reminder of why mid-sized .38 Spl. revolvers were popular with law-enforcement personnel before the mass migration to semi-automatics. The 25-oz. weight of this snub gun is a bit heavy for concealed carry, but it tames the recoil of standard velocity .38 Spl. ammunition nicely.

All of the test ammunition loaded, fired and ejected reliably. Spent cases often fell free from the cylinder without any help from the ejector. Shooting free hand at 15 yards, it was not much of a challenge to maintain regular center-of-mass shot placement. Formal accuracy testing was conducted from a bench rest using the revolver in single-action mode firing into targets set at 7 yards.

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The results were on par with other 2" revolvers I've tested. HPR HyperClean 158-gr. jacketed hollow points produced the best single group of 1.85" with the best five-group average of 2.04". Remington 110-gr. HTP semi-jacketed hollow points yielded an average of 2.17", followed by the Armscor 158-gr. full-metal jacket load at 2.19".

The M206 .38 Spl. is something of a shooting market contradiction. With the Parkerized models marked at a suggested retail price of $283, and real-world prices under $250, it seems like these six-shot steel revolvers would have mediocre triggers and actions. But much of the finishing work is done the old fashioned way: by hand.

The result in a smooth action and trigger that is better than the revolver’s price would imply. If you are looking for a .38 Spl. that is affordable, enjoyable to shoot and shipped with a Limited Lifetime Warranty, this Rock Island revolver deserves a closer look.

Rock Island Armory M206 Specifications
Manufacturer: Rock Island Armory
Model: M206 Action: Double-Action Revolver
Caliber: .38 Spl.
Finish: Matte Black Parkerized
Grips: Compact Checkered Hardwood
Sights: Fixed Cylinder
Width: 1.40"
Barrel Length: 2.15"
Overall Length: 7.75"
Weight: 25 ozs. unloaded
Capacity: 6 rounds
Twist: 1:18” RH
Rifle Grooves: Six
Accessories: Hard Case, Owner's Manual
MSRP: Parkerized $283, Nickel: $492
from: https://www.americanrifleman.org/conten ... -revolver/

So, how does a Philippine company make a revolver so cheaply, when revolvers are famous (notorious?) for the amount of hand-fitting required? The article only brushes this subject, but I wanted to delve into the matter further. One of the most available sources of information on how guns work is the gunpartscorp.com site, which is the Gun Parts Corporation, successor to the old Numrich company that has been in business for well over 100 years. They often provide a parts diagram for individual guns. (Hint: save this link, because you can use it for many other guns, as well!)

My comments will be based on this diagram:

Image

which is available from the full page here: https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufa ... esbing-200

the American Rifleman article noted that the revolver was similar to a Colt, but had the features of other makes. Unfortunately, the author didn't compare the revolver directly in size, because that would have told us what holster might be used: e.g., can one use a Colt Detective Special holster, or an Official Police holster, or a holster meant for some other gun?

But Armscor choosing a Colt design over a Smith & Wesson makes the gun cheaper to produce, and a better gun, as well. You can first tell that the gun is Colt-based because the sideplate is on the left side, rather than the right, and because the cylinder rotates clockwise, rather than counter-clockwise, like most other double action revolvers.

The clockwise rotation is important, because the hand, the part that turns the cylinder, pushes the cylinder into the frame, rather than out of the frame, like counter-clockwise cylinder rotation does. This eliminates the need to anchor the cylinder at both front and back of the cylinder. You will notice that Smith & Wesson revolvers have a lock on the front of the barrel, which requires additional machining and fitting. Turning the cylinder the right way in the first place eliminates needless manufacturing expense and complexity. Another advantage is that, on snub nosed revolvers, the ejector rod can be made longer when a cylinder lock isn't on the end of the barrel. This longer ejector rod ensures that fired cases are more reliably ejected in the reloading cycle.

Another advantage to the Colt design that is seen in the pictures is moving the cylinder bolt slot to the side of the chambers on the cylinder. This means that, unlike Smith & Wesson, the slots are not cut in the thinnest, weakest part of the cylinder, but rather to the side, in the thicker web portions.

The barrel is pinned to the frame, like a Smith & Wesson. You can see this above the barrel, where it threads into the frame. Colts don't have this pin, and I suspect the use of it allows Armscor to seat the barrels in a cheaper process, saving some more money.

A big savings is involved in the choice of lockwork, visible in the parts diagram. I would describe this lock as the Ruger double action design, adopted to the Colt clockwise rotation with a sideplate on the left. (Rugers don't use a sideplate.)

Colt, since 1905, and Smith & Wesson, after World War 2, each used a lock design that included a positive method of preventing an accidental discharge. This can happen if a revolver is dropped that doesn't have such a feature, such as an IOF revolver. This safety feature allows a "6-shooter" to be a true six shot gun, rather than having to leave an empty chamber under the hammer, as with an IOF, and eliminates the need for a so-called" safety (that doesn't make anything safe!) as seen on the IOF revolver.

The Ruger design eliminates the rebound lever of the Colt and the sliding bar of the Smith & Wesson and uses a transfer bar instead. You can see this transfer bar, #45, in the parts picture. This bar raises when the trigger is pulled. The hammer then strikes it and in turn, the transfer bar strikes the firing pin. Thus, unless the trigger is pulled all the way back, the hammer cannot hit the firing pin and discharge the gun.

This design eliminates a lot of parts that require close fitting in the Colt or Smith & Wesson designs, so a lot of money is saved in manufacturing costs here, as well.

The magazine article contains a picture of the hammer: look closely and you will see that it is most likely an injection moulded sintered steel part. Most likely, the internal parts of the revolver are made by the same process. This allows parts to be made with minimal machining and finishing, because they are moulded to size or nearly to size, rather than needing to be machined from a block of steel to fit and work.

What I see here is a gun that is intelligently designed, borrowing from what has worked in the past and marrying different systems together to provide a reliable weapon. Thus, it's not just a cheap piece of junk or a slavish copy of an older design. The thought that went into these revolvers gives the best of both worlds: an inexpensive gun that is also strong and reliable, and can be fully loaded to its full six shot capacity. I think that a lot of people who are on a budget, yet want or need to carry, would appreciate such a gun.

Consider the price: 0.2 lakh rather than 1.2 lakh. The reasons for this, I will let you, the reader, fill in for yourselves. I think it is a real shame that such a weapon is not made in India. It wouldn't even need to bear the cost of shipping it across the ocean to import it into another country! Unfortunately, it is unobtainable.

Anyway, I wanted to provide this as food for thought.
timmy wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:25 am
I could not be surprised if the "captains of industry" do anything, no matter how illogical, but I observe:

Making pistols is not so high tech anymore, as the basic concepts have been identified for awhile: Some sort of polymer frame, a metallic slide and steel barrel, all of which could be made anywhere. India isn't the low cost labor market in the world; that would be countries like Vietnam and Sri Lanka. The political situation in Sri Lanka may not be optimal, but Vietnam already has experience in arms manufacture: the SMLE clones for Australia.

Chinese stuff is contracted with any number of manufacturers. When I was young, "Japanese junk" was a common term. But Japan soon showed a proficiency in optics, electronics, guns, automobiles, and many other sectors of Industry. China has also gone through this transformation. There are many things that China does a very good job at making. Often, if one acquires something poorly made in China, it is because the middleman (often from the USA or Europe) has fixed an expense that only allows poor or inept manufacture. The product, in many cases, could have been better if the middleman had allowed for a higher cost Chinese manufacturer to make the item.

As i said in a previous post, if the Philippines can make a serviceable revolver at an affordable cost (last night, Sportsman's Warehouse listed a Rock island/Armscor 38 Spl snubby revolver for $200) would all (or any) of the companies mentioned here be interested in outsourcing manufacture alone, at a price point at or lower than the Philippines without also having access to the local market? As I said, corporations cannot be depended on for logic, but I do wonder about the business case of guns "for export only" manufacture in India.

I am, in a way, somewhat sad about this. I wish that India offered a competent product in a line that interested me. For instance, the old Royal Enfield designs are updated and manufactured (but they are very expensive) and I would like to own one. Why can't a gun be made of similar quality and, better yet, at an affordable price? If a Bose can design sound systems and components that command world attention and respect, are not similarly gifted minds available to design firearms?

Well, the answer to this last question is something I learned years ago: the key to success in the corporate world is 20% having a good idea, and 80% BS. Who can talk a better advertising campaign? Who has greased the palms of which politician to buy the land, build the factory, and clear the way for going to work. The key to business is usually the ability to talk someone's money into one's own pocket, rather than a better idea or a superiorly made product, although having a superior product is often a big plus, as Sony or Toyota shows us.
"One constant about the elements of 1914 - as of any era - was the disposition of everyone on all sides not to prepare for the harder alternative, not to act upon what they suspected to be true"

Barbara Tuchman, "The Guns of August"

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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by Woods » Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:45 am

Many wish to come and many wish them to come . Sadly it doesn't change the reality here .
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by winnie_the_pooh » Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:58 am

What I understand is that ARMSCOR imports guns and possibly ammo.made abroad and sells them in USA at affordable prices. The company does seem to supervise production at these facilities to ensure acceptable standards.

An Indian manufacturer to sign an agreement with ARMSCOR is understandable .Only access to the American market can sustain any manufacturing of arms or ammo in India.

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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by timmy » Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:10 am

My Wife and I just walked into the door, after spending most of the day in the "big city."

I stopped at a farm store that has a gun shop in it (I had also stopped at a sporting goods store earlier, which had a lot more guns), and saw that they had five Armscor / Rock Island Arsenal 1911-style pistols in the showcase. These ranged from a 31 1/2" barreled "bobbed" version to one with all of the "bells and whistles," including picatinny rail under the muzzle for accessories, like a flashlight, "beavertail" grip safety extension, etc.

As a check point, the "bare bones" 1911 with military sights and no frills was priced at ₹35793 / $470, the compact, short barreled version was ₹40362 / $530, and the "bells and whistles" model was about ₹49500 / $650. All of these were, as I recall, in 45 Auto.

Given that transportation can't be any more expensive to India, these figures might be of interest as a baseline for which to calculate import duties, distribution fees, dealer markup and profit, and whatever other "miscellaneous" expenses might be associated with one of these pistols, should they appear in the display case of your local gun shop.
"One constant about the elements of 1914 - as of any era - was the disposition of everyone on all sides not to prepare for the harder alternative, not to act upon what they suspected to be true"

Barbara Tuchman, "The Guns of August"

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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by indogunfreak » Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:32 am

I echo in full agreement, pricing should be affordable after all. I am no gun manufacturing expert but have my share of experience in the Industry. The biggest challenge is you can't import in India which means 'Make In India' and significant capital investment in plant, tooling and machinery. The popular calibers like 9mm which already have major tooling investments are not allowed for civilians and the most popular Indian caliber with affordable ammunition 0.32 will need hefty tooling investments.

I recall meeting a guy who has been designing guns for some large scale players in the U.S and has some impressive credentials behind his name. I was almost on the verge of an argument when he mentioned that design, prototyping and tooling may cost north of $120,000 just for a reliable double stack 0.32 magazines for a 1911 (who would want a boring 8 round mag given the advances in technology). Finally, he won the argument when he mentioned MIL specs quality and 25,000 rounds service life. The progressive die stamping tooling to make these parts are costly initially but pays off well, provided the volumes.

I remember the days when 0.32 IOF pistol was selling north of 1 Lacs (I don't know if that's still the case) but given the poor quality it should cost no more than 45,000 given the fact that IOF have made thousands of these and recovered most of the machinery/tooling investments. I don't intend to be suggestive but I'll personally be happy to have a 1911 pistol with American standard quality between INR 125,000 - 150,000 from a manufacturer who has been making it for decades now and ready to back it up with sufficient after sales warranty. I know some people quoting an Indian manufactured typical 1911 between 4-5 lacs but that is ridiculous to say the least.

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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by Woods » Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:28 pm

indogunfreak wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:32 am
.........

I remember the days when 0.32 IOF pistol was selling north of 1 Lacs (I don't know if that's still the case) but given the poor quality it should cost no more than 45,000 given the fact that IOF have made thousands of these and recovered most of the machinery/tooling investments. I don't intend to be suggestive but I'll personally be happy to have a 1911 pistol with American standard quality between INR 125,000 - 150,000 from a manufacturer who has been making it ....

Best,
IGF
Maybe your sense of being local is compelling you to peg OFB .32 ACP at around INR 45000 .

A Facebook friend of mine visited our mutual friend in Nepal a few years ago . He is a gunsmith himself. I showed him very detailed and high quality pictures and videos of my Ashani pistol. Among many things he also appreciated its value in international market . He said it can very well fetch around USD 200 . Because of being a good specimen of the Arms prevalent in India .
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by timmy » Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:26 am

Woods wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:28 pm
indogunfreak wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:32 am
.........

I remember the days when 0.32 IOF pistol was selling north of 1 Lacs (I don't know if that's still the case) but given the poor quality it should cost no more than 45,000 given the fact that IOF have made thousands of these and recovered most of the machinery/tooling investments. I don't intend to be suggestive but I'll personally be happy to have a 1911 pistol with American standard quality between INR 125,000 - 150,000 from a manufacturer who has been making it ....

Best,
IGF
Maybe your sense of being local is compelling you to peg OFB .32 ACP at around INR 45000 .

A Facebook friend of mine visited our mutual friend in Nepal a few years ago . He is a gunsmith himself. I showed him very detailed and high quality pictures and videos of my Ashani pistol. Among many things he also appreciated its value in international market . He said it can very well fetch around USD 200 . Because of being a good specimen of the Arms prevalent in India .
Woods: $200 is about the going price for the bottom of the market here in the USA nowadays. These prices have gotten away from me over the years.

Around 15 to 20 years ago, I purchased a CZ 70 (32 Auto - my main "carry gun") a CZ 52 (7.62x25 mm) with hoster, and a "Star" 9 mm (Norinco 219 9mm that is essentially a Tokarev TT 33), all of these for $125 each. Now, they would go for $200 to $300.

For my Wife, I wanted to purchase a Colt Police Positive in 32 S&W about six years ago. A nice one would usually go for around $500. (I ended up getting her a new Ruger Mk IV 22 bull barrel.)

I have often looked at the Swiss M1882 Schmidt revolvers, which are truly made like Swiss watches and were the ancestor of Colt double actions like the Python, Diamondback, and New Service. A nice one of those is about $700 to $1000.

Any old 32 Auto will go for around $200 now, as they aren't in much demand. People here look down on 32 Auto and while there is some 380 Auto, most handguns by far are 9 mm. New ones in the counter run from $500 and up, and < $1000 pistols aren't at all uncommon here. Revolvers aren't nearly as popular, and their prices generally run 1.5x to 2x the cost of a pistol. But regarding 32 Auto, the smallest 32 and 380 Autos are hardly larger than the old 25 Autos, are usually composite framed, and as light as a feather. My old CZ 70 (very similar in shape, size, and weight to a Walther PPK) is all steel and quite heavy, compared to new stuff. Plenty of small 9 mm pistols are available in the size of it, or an Ashani. There's a guy on Youtube who likes "mouse guns" (the name for small pocket pistols in 32 Auto and some 380s), but they aren't very popular, thus the low price for a used one. Frankly, the people who buy these things here are either kooks like the guy on Youtube or me, or women who want a small purse gun, or people who don't know much about guns at all. The 9 mm has just about run off the competition from the little-larger-than-mousegun size all the way to the 1911 size. 45 Auto guns are still popular here, and there's a little 10 mm, but the 9 mm is to handguns (pistol and revolver combined) what the 12 gauge is to shotguns, and the 45 Auto would be like 20 gauge shotguns. The bullet revolution has turned the world upside down in handguns, and the 9 mm has displaced all comers.

Revolvers here still have some following, but they have become somewhat of a specialty. Someone who wants 44 Magnum or above power levels will choose a revolver, and the 357 retains some following. 38 Special is looked at like the 380 Auto, fit only for small snubbies (a shame, because it is a fun target and plinking round). I can see 327 Magnum making small inroads in the small revolver market here, but the 30 Super Carry, which I think is a fine idea, probably won't get much interest in the end.

Hipoint pistols can be had cheaply, but as they are zinc, I don't consider them a real gun, but a toy. Many here, who are unaware of what Marlin used to be, consider the Henry 22 lever action rifles to be the top of the line, but they are actually a rehash of the old German Erma 22 lever action, with a receiver made of zinc (actually, Zamac, a zinc alloy). The Germans made them after WW2 when such cheap guns were all they could produce. After going through a number of hands, Henry got the tooling and rights for them. You can't blue zinc, so they have a sheet metal cover for the receiver that is blued or gaudily brass plated. But to me, they are zinc and cheap junk. i have an old Marlin and would never consider having such a thing as a Henry.

Cheap "Western Cowboy" style 22 single action revolvers can be had for $130 here new, made by Heritage. They also make cheap zinc junk. I saw a guy at the range with a brand new one and it was constantly jamming on him. Ruger has brought out some competition with their Wrangler, based on their Single Six 22, but not finished as nicely and with zinc, instead of aluminum grip frames. I think that the trigger and hammer are made of sintered cast metals. The frame, cylinder, and barrel are steel. These sell for about $200 new if you can find a good deal.

Ruger makes a very nice "Security 9" in full size, compact, and micro forms that have a composite frame. These striker fired 9 mm pistols start at around $350 new and quickly go up from there, depending on the sights and other bells and whistles. They are reviewed quite well, and I very strongly considered getting one until my Wife told me I could have a gun for Christmas. At that point, I forgot all about Rugers and 9 mm pistols and bought a military Swiss straight pull bolt action rifle -- probably my last gun before turning toes-up.

This will give you an idea of what handguns go for here. The prices of Armscor / Rock Island Arsenal semi-auto guns are competitive, and their prices for the smaller revolver market are frankly outstanding, and they seem to be made well.
"One constant about the elements of 1914 - as of any era - was the disposition of everyone on all sides not to prepare for the harder alternative, not to act upon what they suspected to be true"

Barbara Tuchman, "The Guns of August"

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Woods
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by Woods » Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:16 pm

Given the craftsmanship visible on the OFB Ashani , I now apprehend that the gunsmith friend valued the pistol at USD 200 to keep my heart from sinking further . :lol:
Last edited by Woods on Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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indogunfreak
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by indogunfreak » Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:41 pm

I wrote an email to the Armscor Sales Manager (I had his business card from my meeting at the show) and informed him about our gun forum, even shared the link to this post. He responded saying that he is pleasantly surprised to see so many gun lovers in India.

I received a request from him to ask the people in our forum if they would be interested in a brief survey aimed at Indian market and understanding expectations of the Indian gun buyers like caliber, mag capacity, price levels etc. I am fairly new here and forum veterans could help me with this. I think it's good that someone is willing to understand the Indian market.

I need your suggestions whether I may propose some compensation for the survey, maybe some early adopter discount. (Doesn't hurt trying our luck - We won't get any if we don't ask any) :wink:

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Woods
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by Woods » Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:13 am

indogunfreak wrote:
Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:41 pm
I wrote an email to the Armscor Sales Manager (I had his business card from my meeting at the show) and informed him about our gun forum, even shared the link to this post. He responded saying that he is pleasantly surprised to see so many gun lovers in India.

I received a request from him to ask the people in our forum if they would be interested in a brief survey aimed at Indian market and understanding expectations of the Indian gun buyers like caliber, mag capacity, price levels etc. I am fairly new here and forum veterans could help me with this. I think it's good that someone is willing to understand the Indian market.

I need your suggestions whether I may propose some compensation for the survey, maybe some early adopter discount. (Doesn't hurt trying our luck - We won't get any if we don't ask any) :wink:
The driving force or the largest factor to be reckoned here is the do called regulations or actually the mechanism to employ" kickback " system .

Only a few businessman have the skills or spare time required to take a jump in such markets .
Great men are not born great , they grow great .

Crazygunlover
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by Crazygunlover » Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:40 pm

Really interested to see Rock Island 1911 Pistol in 45 bore ..they are excellent in looks and performance ...and also have a wide range of variety of 45 bore Pistols ... It will also give very tough competition to Indian companies manufacturing 45 pistols locally here and demanding 7 to 9 lacs for their domestic local made products .....Rock Island Armoury Pistols are also bestsellers in US markets also ..waiting to grab one

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pistolero
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by pistolero » Thu May 12, 2022 4:32 pm

To each his own, but I would not buy Armscor

Also most importantly, these guys have been left in the dust by Turkish manufacturers who have outclassed them at every step in the US market, despite Armscor being there decades before them. Their parts are not drop in.

Given the minuscule market size in India, no manufacturer will offer products as the same price as the International market.

Now when I know something that sells for $200-$-350 would I pay thousands of$$ for the same? I would not! As they will not change their manufacturing process! So its the same $200 pistol with basic reliability, making it not too different from IOF
"Whatever is begun in anger ends in shame."

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mohshar
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by mohshar » Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:06 pm

You heard it right @indogunfreak, I am glad to share that Rock Island Armory is strategic partners with Werywin Defence (India) to bring in affordable 1911s. The details of models to be launched will follow shortly. We are very excited about to bring our strategic partners to India and committed in service to Indian gun community.

Regards,
Mohit
Werywin Defence

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