ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

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timmy
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by timmy » Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:20 am

pistolero wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:56 pm
Here is the thing Cast, Sintered & MIM parts are known to fail.
This is hardly a groudbreaking observation. Everything made by mankind is known to fail at one time or another.

You are doubling down on an assertion for which you have provided no facts or data. Merely stating that something is so doesn't make it so.
pistolero wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:56 pm
There is a Reason WILSON, LES baer, Night Hawk etc, DO NOT use Sintered/MIM/Cast parts.
I'm sure there are reasons why these firms don't use a sintering process. You don't cite those reasons, but imply that you know the reason without saying it. Do you have evidence why they don't use the sintering process that you know?

Just because these firms don't use a sintering process proves nothing about the reliability of sintered products.

Again, I mentioned connecting rods in automotive engines using the sintering process successfully. Are you now going to assert that automotive connecting rods undergo less stress than the hammer, trigger, and bolt of a revolver? I doubt that you would do so, because such an argument is absurd, even to the casual observer. Still, you have not responded to a demonstrated case in which sintered components are quite reliable.
pistolero wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:56 pm
In the MIM process, the debinding steps and sintering steps are critical to making sure the part has the correct hardness. If either of those steps aren’t done correctly, you can get a part that’s too soft, such many of the Kimber MIM sears, or a part that’s too hard and thus brittle. Those steps can also be performed correctly and still result in a part that’s too soft if your initial formula wasn’t quite right. Quality Control is a big big concern.
Nobody is debating the point that the process has to be done correctly. Thus, this line of argument is an irrelevant red herring.

You said "Sintered parts are not reliable and we can go into the mechanics of that." Now you are saying that the sintered part has to be made correctly. This is not the same thing and your argument isn't consistent.
pistolero wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:56 pm
Now if you want to justify that a bargain basement manufacturer is indeed going through the process of strict quality control, and has got it right, where most in the world have not, that is on you. I dont believe in Santa Claus, but I have nothing against people who do.
I don't believe in Santa Claus either, but I also don't believe in people who make claims without the support of facts and data. We aren't debating the price point of Armscor products in the market. We are debating the reliability of their products, specifically the sintered parts in their products.

I have made no claim that their products are reliable or unreliable. You have claimed that they are unreliable, but rather than providing facts and data to support your conclusion, you simply say "Sintered parts are not reliable and we can go into the mechanics of that.'

Your going into the "mechanics of that" consisted of a brief description of how a sintered part has to be processed to make it right. So, does Armscor get it right? You assert that they cannot, because they market at a low price point, but you provide no evidence that Armscor doesn't perform the sintering process correctly, again with no facts and data. It must be so, because that's your logic.

This reminds me of people who thought heavier objects fell faster than light objects, just because it seemed reasonable. Nobody actually tested the issue to see if it was actually true.

You say that you don't believe in Santa Claus, but here, we're concerned with what you do believe, and this amounts to an ever increasing number of unsupported claims.
pistolero wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:56 pm
So your point on market is, that the Armscor is a Great product! and losing market share has nothing to do with quality?
No, I said that "The idea that the market determines the best product has been proven false so many times that I'm surprised that it's still advanced."

This is not the same thing. Your attempt to put words in my mouth and argue against that only proves the bankruptcy of your assertions -- certainly this must be clear to you?!
pistolero wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:56 pm
you had a certain share of market and now your market is dwindling, because instead of moving forward you are standing still, no up gradation, no change in process! You are not listening to customer feedback! So others have come and yes kicked your butt, and have taken your market share, because of their product quality, they had no History in the American market, but by providing consistent quality they have prevailed. Now we can romanticize this with what a great product! Should have continued to succeed!! Well truth of the matter is, they had market share till there was no choice. Once companies started listening to their customers, the ones not listening, lost market share. So there is the WOULD. The company refuses to change, so now instead of trying to find their way in their primary market they are coming to India, :lol: :lol: and that too with a company which has ZERO manufacturing experience, and we are expecting Manna to drop from heaven!! :lol: :lol: Again if they were so great, would their own security forces not prefer it?? and in India, where we have no licenses, and scant chances of success :D why even bother? The only reason is they have no choice! they have to bolster numbers, and I am sure they see a market with a Billion people wanting cheap guns :roll:

We can keep going on and on....
And so you have. Perhaps you will continue to do so.

Your unsupported emotional rants against a product that sells at a low price point and uses modern manufacturing methods has been totally unaccompanied by any facts and data, and has failed to address any objections made to your statements. Rather, you address statements that you invent and assign to others. This is hardly a basis for a logical discussion.
pistolero wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:56 pm
You Sir are free to buy what you want, but presenting Armscor, as a success or a quality product is misrepresentation, they are "cheap junk" good for markets where you can buy a cheap gun and work on it as a hobby, not in India, where you can only have 2 guns, and you have put your life in the hands of a product which is far from perfect.

But again, we are all free to make our own mistakes. You like it, you should buy it. I will NOT buy it.
I do appreciate your permission to buy what I want.

However, I do consider your unfounded negative categorizations against Armscor's products as unwarranted and too undignified for this board.
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by pistolero » Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:26 am

Do you want me to even reply or that is also against board norms??
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by timmy » Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:35 am

pistolero wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:26 am
I am not negatively categorizing Armscor, I am just calling out Troll marketing is all
You say that your are not negatively categorizing Armscor, when you stated
but presenting Armscor, as a success or a quality product is misrepresentation, they are "cheap junk"
Your lack of grasp of reality is astonishing.
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by Aksharma.kaplish » Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:47 am

I am looking forward to the launch of news weapons. Lets not judge too quickly. If they are any good they will make it in the market and if they are not then they will share the same fate as other manufacturers. All that matters is the quality of the product beacuse to be honest as of mow the bar is not that high with iof and all those manufacturers in india. I dnt see glock or cz or anyother brand launching guns anytime soon, so why hate if someone is making an effort.

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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by Ranveer » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:09 am

I am fairly new and inexperienced compared to a lot of people here , have a competitive shooting background too .
My only point is we should be happy and encourage when someone tries to do something new . Quality of RIA pistols , well let time be the judge of that and also everyone has the right to express their opinions , but please don’t force it on others .
Let’s keep the discussions healthy and progressive .

Thank you

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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by partheus » Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:10 am

@pistelero, you seem very keen to discredit WeryWin. So, while Moshar's original assertion was...
mohshar wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:49 pm

Introduction: I am Mohit Sharma, Co-founder and Member of the Board for Werywin Defence, India. I come from a gun dealer business family background dating back to 40 years.
you twisted it to...
pistolero wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:10 pm
Lets focus on you now, please ask your fellow handle to highlight 40 years of experience in Manufacturing Firearms in India.
&
pistolero wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:08 pm

Since you claim you have 40 years of Experience in Defence & Firearms manufacturing, let us know a little. Such a rich experience needs to be shared, when that is your claim to fame. By the way where were you manufacturing firearms for 40 years?? in India ?? :D :lol:

Your company is only 2 years old and you claim, 40 years of experience.
Moshar has clearly stated they have 40 years of experience in firearm trading, NOT manufacturing, which is what you're busy insinuating. Care to explain why? Even WeryWin's website states 40 years of experience in firearm sales, marketing and maintenance.

Expecting companies here to have firearm manufacturing experience before going for international collaboration is absurd, to say the least since there were no private firearm manufacturers who made 1911s, ar-15s, pa, sa shotguns and polymer pistols in India to begin with. Private sector participation has only just started, which is well known, so any tie-ups have to be with startups. Why even bother asking such a question?

You also stated...
pistolero wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:04 pm

Yes Dude I have won Medals at National Level in Pistol Shooting, and I do have more than 3 Decades of experience in firearms, now that you know this, please highlight your experience, and dont forget to come to the Aid of your primary handle to defend 40 years of manufacturing experience.
Which makes me wonder where you're based. Are you an Indian? If so, just how do you have such "extensive" knowledge of what manufacturing processes Armscor, Nighthawk et all use? None of these companies or the products they sell have any presence in India. If you really are in India, what does your 3 decades of firearm experience comprise of?

This is russianshooter all over again :roll:

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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by pistolero » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:02 pm

Hello Partheus,

Let me answer your questions:

Moshar has clearly stated they have 40 years of experience in firearm trading, NOT manufacturing, which is what you're busy insinuating. Care to explain why? Even WeryWin's website states 40 years of experience in firearm sales, marketing and maintenance.

Expecting companies here to have firearm manufacturing experience before going for international collaboration is absurd, to say the least since there were no private firearm manufacturers who made 1911s, ar-15s, pa, sa shotguns and polymer pistols in India to begin with. Private sector participation has only just started, which is well known, so any tie-ups have to be with startups. Why even bother asking such a question?
---------
Moshar has stated: My background and manufacturing experience are well endorsed by the brands standing with me which so far is India's biggest commercial firearms alliance and, I don't need an experience endorsement from anyone.
-----

Based on his "Background & Manufacturing Experience" I have asked him to share some details. As he comes from an experienced Gun Dealing family, would have been nice to name the Brand or name of the Shop that they had, but lets not mind that.

As he stated, his Manufacturing experience is well endorsed, I was curious to know. That is all, now that we are all agreeing Werrywin has no manufacturing experience, I rest my case.

Moving to your next point Sir:

You also stated...

Which makes me wonder where you're based. Are you an Indian? If so, just how do you have such "extensive" knowledge of what manufacturing processes Armscor, Nighthawk et all use? None of these companies or the products they sell have any presence in India. If you really are in India, what does your 3 decades of firearm experience comprise of?
---
Yes I am Indian
I have spent my life around firearms its a labor of love, I have been in Manufacturing of precision components for well over 2 decades, yes I have an understanding of firearms, and components far more complex than firearms.
Am I really in India.. well easily solved we can always meet in person and Talk.. I got no problems! Send me a PM

This is russianshooter all over again :roll:
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by timmy » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:40 am

This is a very sad story, pistolero, as Mr Partheus has caught you out and you are changing your story again, and arguing against the words you put into other people's mouths, and not what they say.

You are creating quite a record of falsely attributing positions and words to others and creating a lot of unwelcome disturbance here.

My suggestion is that you would drop this whole business and be quiet about it.
pistolero wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:02 pm
Hello Partheus,

Let me answer your questions:

Moshar has clearly stated they have 40 years of experience in firearm trading, NOT manufacturing, which is what you're busy insinuating. Care to explain why? Even WeryWin's website states 40 years of experience in firearm sales, marketing and maintenance.

Expecting companies here to have firearm manufacturing experience before going for international collaboration is absurd, to say the least since there were no private firearm manufacturers who made 1911s, ar-15s, pa, sa shotguns and polymer pistols in India to begin with. Private sector participation has only just started, which is well known, so any tie-ups have to be with startups. Why even bother asking such a question?
---------
Moshar has stated: My background and manufacturing experience are well endorsed by the brands standing with me which so far is India's biggest commercial firearms alliance and, I don't need an experience endorsement from anyone.
-----

Based on his "Background & Manufacturing Experience" I have asked him to share some details. As he comes from an experienced Gun Dealing family, would have been nice to name the Brand or name of the Shop that they had, but lets not mind that.
No sir. This is what you said to Mr Mohshar:
pistolero wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:08 pm
Since you claim you have 40 years of Experience in Defence & Firearms manufacturing, let us know a little. Such a rich experience needs to be shared, when that is your claim to fame. By the way where were you manufacturing firearms for 40 years?? in India ?? :D :lol:
and:
pistolero wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:37 am
The Questions here are simple, Armscor has a found a partner who claims to have 40 years of experience in Defence and was only incorporated 2 years ago. The company in India, has no prior experience in manufacturing . . .
Just to remind you, Mr Mohshar actually said:
mohshar wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:19 pm
My background and manufacturing experience are well endorsed by the brands standing with me which so far is India's biggest commercial firearms alliance . . .
and
mohshar wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:49 pm
I come from a gun dealer business family background dating back to 40 years. Our manufacturing facility is currently under development at UP Defence Corridor - Aligarh Node and we are licensed to manufacture firearms and ammunition including handguns, automatic/semi automatic rifles for Army/LE and BL guns (including semi-automatic). We have been working for more than 2.5 years now to bring the latest firearms to India with strategic alliances and design/prototyping efforts.
pistolero, there is simply no way that any reasonable person can accept what you are saying and implying about Mr Mohshar as having any correspondence to what he really said.

These sorts of personal attacks that Mr Partheus has identified, plus the unfounded statements you made about manufacturing sintered parts, which have been challenged and which challenges have gone unanswered, indicate that you are either exhibiting a lack of self-control in your posts or that you intend a mendacious attack against Mr Mohshar -- or both.

I believe that I'm correct to observe that, when dealing with the unfounded and twisted things that you have posted about Mr Mohshar, we could trust a gentleman to apologize to him publicly on the forum.

This whole business, especially your maintaining a aggressively hostile attitude in the matter, is quite troubling.
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by timmy » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:47 am

Hopefully, we can all get back to an interesting and gentlemanly discussion about Armscor coming to India, and enjoying conversation about Mr Mohshar's endeavors to bring arms to India.
“When someone shows you who they are, believe them.”

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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by Ranveer » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:44 am

Eagerly waiting for a sneak peak of the Armscor India lineup

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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

Post by mohshar » Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:44 am

Ranveer wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:44 am
Eagerly waiting for a sneak peak of the Armscor India lineup
Just posted the first few pictures and model information on a new thread

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=28776

Regards,
Mohit
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