Effective range of handguns (Combat Experience w/.45 ACP)

[jonahpach]

Combat Experience w/.45 ACP

A Navy SEAL Team was returning from a mission over North Vietnam in a chopper
when it got hit pretty bad. The pilot and one crew member were killed and
the copilot was wounded. Going into autorotation, the copilot managed to set
the chopper down in a clearing. After landing, a few rounds of enemy fire
were starting to come in. Seems the M60s were also damaged beyond use by
the crash landing and initial RPG hit, the only M16 fell out on the way down.
The only firearms left was M1911s.

The remaining crew member was carrying a match conditioned M1911 and had a
few boxes of ammo. As more enemy small arms fire started comming in, the
copilot and crew member also noted that the VC were comming out of the jungle
and approaching them; shooting as they came. The crew member took out his .45
and took careful aim as he shot at each attacking VC. About 30 minutes later
it was all over. Between reloading magazines and radioing for rescue, the
copilot was pretty busy, but a rescue chopper finally arrived on the scene.

As the rescue chopper came in and landed, its crew noticed a lot of dead VC
laying around. The downed helo's remaining crew were picked up and on their
way out, they counted the dead VC; 37 in all. Their distances from the downed
helo were from 3 to about 150 yards; all shot by the crew member with his
M1911 .45 ACP. About 80 rounds were fired by Petty Officer R.J. Thomas, a
member of the USN Rifle and Pistol Team.

Petty Officer Thomas was recommended for the Congressional Medal of Honor, but
by the time the recommendation got all the way up through the chain of
command, the recognition was reduced to the Navy Cross.

Link of Original Story
http://www.seawolf.org/stories/det3battles.asp

[mundaire]

Nice one, recall reading this on "the Sight m1911-A1" website - http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/legends/rjthomas.htm , at that time I'd googled for more info and came up with the following thread http://www.eotacforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=40887

RJ Thomas is a real deal guy and a true hero.

However, that nonsense that has been floating around for several years (at least 4 years) has some errors that Ray Charles could see.

Enclosed is his Navy Cross citation. The facts therein are not embellished, but obviously does not contain all that happened.

This takes nothing away from the man, but the contradictions in the errornet post are blatant.

The Navy Cross is presented to Robert J. Thomas, Radarman Second Class, U.S. Navy, for extraordinary heroism on 23 March 1969 while serving with Sea-Air-Land Team TWO (SEAL-2), Detachment ALFA, Seventh Platoon, during combat operations against communist aggressor forces in the Republic of Vietnam. Embarked in a Seawolf helicopter on a visual reconnaissance and strike mission on Da Dung Mountain near the Cambodian border when the aircraft was struck by enemy ground fire and crashed in an exposed rice paddy, Petty Officer Thomas was thrown from the wreckage, sustaining multiple injuries. Fighting off the stunning effects of shock, he immediately moved to the aid of the helicopter crewmen who were still in the burning aircraft. Despite the intense flames and the heavy gunfire from both the mountain and a nearby tree line, Petty Officer Thomas managed to remove one of the crewmen to safety and, with the aid of another man who had been dropped onto the site by an accompanying helicopter, succeeded in freeing the trapped pilot from the flaming cockpit. Petty Officer Thomas then made a gallant attempt to rescue the two remaining men trapped beneath the twisted metal, discontinuing his efforts only when driven back by the exploding bullets and rockets of the burning helicopter. After moving the two previously rescued men to a greater distance from the crash site, Petty Officer Thomas realized that Viet Cong troops were steadily advancing on his position. He selflessly threw himself upon the body of one of the wounded men and began returning the enemy fire. His deadly accuracy accounted for at least one enemy dead and held the aggressors at bay until an Army rescue helicopter landed. By his valiant efforts and selfless devotion to duty while under hostile fire, Petty Officer Thomas upheld the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

-- 30 Apr 2009 09:59 pm --

P.S. More at http://www.navyseals.com/three-fallon-v ... nt-country and http://www.udtseal.netfirms.com/mohnc.htm (see the bottom of the page).

[nagarifle]

it all depends on training, the seal team spend lot of ammo on training at one time in the 80s seal team 6 spent equal to whole of the USA marine corp budget on ammo.

staying cool also helps, thats what legend's are made of

[Ace_doc]

good threads ! btw how far has one of you efectively engaged a target with a handgun and which handgun it was ? that would be worth knowing in the indian scenario.

[simar]

p7m8, sig p226 x5, sig p220 - 50 yards

I would try to shoot further distances, but the range is limited to 50 yards...

[timmy]

My take on this story:

As Abhijeet mentions, the story seems to have some embellishments added to it. When I considered the notion that, under fire, even a trained SEAL could kill 37 enemy soldiers with 80 rounds at ranges between 3 and 150 yards with a 1911, I was a bit skeptical. After all, a magazine holding 7 rounds takes some time to replenish, and the numbers imply at least 11 such recharges of magazines (beside the original magazine), all under fire by an enemy force large enough to suffer 37 killed, and all by the only opposition to that force. It also implies that, beside the firearm, he took two boxes of ammunition -- or, as an alternative, he had 12 full magazines? ...

The Seawolf site didn't mention those numbers (at least, I did not find them), but it did use such terms as "blown away", "injured back gave out", and "real hero", all terms that would not normally be part of an official dispatch -- in other words, these articles have been written from an original source, but are not themselves the official accounts. For instance, if you check Abhijeet's quote, you'll see phrases like "sustained multiple injuries" rather than "injured back gave out."

As far as range of a 1911 shooting .45 ACP, my Dad told me this story, from his personal experiences. Whether this took place in North Africa, Sicily, Italy, France, Germany, or Austria, I don't know:

Dad said that the tankers usually carried a Thompson submachine gun, and the ammunition they were issued contained tracers. They would obtain boxes of this ammo from the tankers and pick out the tracers from the box, and then hang a towel over a stretched line. Then they would get back about 300 yards and launch rounds at the towel with a 1911. Dad said that they would sit on the ground with their backs against a rest, hold the 1911 between their knees with both hands, and with the barrel angled like a howitzer's, touch off the tracers at the towel. He said that, once they could get their hold on target, they could hit the towel repeatedly.

Hitting a presumably attacking soldier, who would be moving about or somewhat behind cover, shooting back, at 150 yards with a 1911 sounds like a pretty tall order.

[Ace_doc]

well timmy ! only long range experience i had was with a 9mm para . the altitude was 10,000 ft and yes we were using tracers. had a single hit on a cut out at 100 yds. this was the only shot to hit the target. we had fired a lot to get that rd on target.