.450 No.1 Express

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Grumpy
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Re: .450 No.1 Express

Post by Grumpy » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:48 pm

It rather depends what you consider `medium` ranges to be. Although I`m not a great fan of the Paradox concept I have to concede that a 740 gr Paradox has exceptional knock down ability even with what now seems to be the accepted `standard` load which propels the 740 gr bullet at 1,050 fps for 1811 ft lbs ME. If zeroed for 100 yards the trajectory is pretty well three inches high all the way to 75 yards. Retained velocity is approx 90% at 100 yards. That`s the load that H&H currently use and it is decidedly `soft` but will cause considerably more harm than the .500/.450 No 1.There were at least half a dozen nitro proof loads for the 12-Bore Paradox ranging from 28 grs cordite up to 47 grs. The latter would give 1475 fps with the same 740 gr bullet and produce almost twice the ME - 3575 ft lbs - and a flatter trajectory than the H&H load detailed above. You`ll have to define what you mean by long range because I`d want to be standing a heck of a long way in front of someone shooting a 740 gr bullet in my direction !
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Re: .450 No.1 Express

Post by TwoRivers » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:25 pm

Grumpy: All clear now. You, the 3 1/4" 500/.450 Nitro for BP, I, the .450 3 1/4" Rigby NE. Yes, too darn many of those cartridges. And sometimes the same case and designation with different loads by different makers. Fun, though.

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Re: .450 No.1 Express

Post by Grumpy » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:01 am

Yeah, fun ..... but all those numbers do my head in. I realised that my slipping in the .450/400 had caused the confusion and should probably have made the point that I was including it to illustrate how, even as a smaller calibre round than the .500/450 No 1, it had a heavier powder charge and fired a heavier bullet.
It can get very complicated as you say, eg, the .400/350 NE and the Rigby .350 No 2 are the same cartridge ...... it`s just that the .400/.350 fired a 310 gr bullet at c. 2,000 fps whilst the Rigby fired a 225 bullet at c. 2,600 fps. There`s at least one other example of that dual naming .... but I can`t remember what it is.
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Re: .450 No.1 Express

Post by TwoRivers » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:55 pm

Let me wipe the egg off my face. Totally blew by the fact that you had snuck the 450/.400 into the discussion. I'm sure my eyes saw 450/.400, but my brain was obviously set on 500/.450. Let's not answer how I managed that.

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Re: .450 No.1 Express

Post by Grumpy » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:40 pm

All those numbers just serve to multiply the boggle factor ........ :)
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Re: .500/450 No.1 Express

Post by miroflex » Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:47 pm

I just read somewhere that the .500/450 No 1 Express was first developed by Westley Richards as a black powder cartridge for use in their rifles. This was in the 1870s. Nitro for black cartridges appeared in arms and ammunition catalogues much later.

I have a double barrel hammerless rifle in this calibre by Fraser of Edinburgh. It was probably made in the twentieth rather than the nineteenth century.

I have searched far and wide for cartridges for this rifle without success. I would be grateful for any help in locating these cartridges in India.

Regards.
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Re: .450 No.1 Express

Post by Safarigent » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:28 pm

Only hope you got it cheap like you wanted. Now the fun part begins: sourcing ammo, which will be old and expensive
Try moradabad dealers
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Re: .500/450 No.1 Express

Post by Vikram » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:35 pm

miroflex wrote:
I have a double barrel hammerless rifle in this calibre by Fraser of Edinburgh. It was probably made in the twentieth rather than the nineteenth century.

I have searched far and wide for cartridges for this rifle without success. I would be grateful for any help in locating these cartridges in India.

Regards.
Miroflex,

I would much appreciate if you could post the photos of your Dan'l Fraser's photos.

As far as I know, Kynoch is the only producer at the moment. If you travel sometime, you can bring some with you.

Best-
Vikram
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Re: .450 No.1 Express

Post by Grumpy » Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:53 pm

Would love to see photos of your Dan`l Fraser rifle - both Vikram and I are fans of old Daniel who was individualistic when it was no longer fashionable to be so.
Make a man a fire and he`ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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Re: .450 No.1 Express

Post by miroflex » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:09 pm

Safarigent wrote:Only hope you got it cheap like you wanted. Now the fun part begins: sourcing ammo, which will be old and expensive
Try moradabad dealers
Thanks for the advice. I am already in touch with a dealer in Moradabad. In case you know of any source, I'd be grateful for the information. I'm open to buying expensive ammo.

Regards.
"To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived." Sherlock Holmes in "The Adventure Of The Copper Beeches" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: .500/450 No.1 Express

Post by miroflex » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:21 pm

Vikram wrote:
miroflex wrote:
I have a double barrel hammerless rifle in this calibre by Fraser of Edinburgh. It was probably made in the twentieth rather than the nineteenth century.

I have searched far and wide for cartridges for this rifle without success. I would be grateful for any help in locating these cartridges in India.

Regards.
Miroflex,

I would much appreciate if you could post the photos of your Dan'l Fraser's photos.

As far as I know, Kynoch is the only producer at the moment. If you travel sometime, you can bring some with you.

Best-
Vikram
Thanks for the post Vikram. I'll try to post some pictures soon. The rifle is with a dealer in Agra while I'm in Dehradun at present.

Are Kynoch making ammunition for this rifle? If so, it would be an added incentive for a trip to good ol' Blighty.

All the best.
"To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived." Sherlock Holmes in "The Adventure Of The Copper Beeches" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: .450 No.1 Express

Post by miroflex » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:28 pm

[NRAVideo][/NRAVideo]
Grumpy wrote:Would love to see photos of your Dan`l Fraser rifle - both Vikram and I are fans of old Daniel who was individualistic when it was no longer fashionable to be so.
Thanks Grumpy. I'll try to post pictures as soon as the rifle is in my hands once more.

All the best.
"To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived." Sherlock Holmes in "The Adventure Of The Copper Beeches" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: .450 No.1 Express

Post by Grumpy » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:41 pm

Kynoch are making .500/.450 NE ammo ..... Whether that`s the same as the No 1 is another matter. You`ld have to contact Kynoch to find-out .... and order ammo well before you make any trip if they do produce ammo to suit your rifle. Like all Kynoch`s products, their .500/.450 NE uses Australian Bertram cases.
Make a man a fire and he`ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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Re: .500/450 No.1 Express

Post by Vikram » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:24 pm

miroflex wrote:Are Kynoch making ammunition for this rifle? If so, it would be an added incentive for a trip to good ol' Blighty.


http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/500-450%20NE.htm

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Re: .450 No.1 Express

Post by Grumpy » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:50 pm

Yes, we know that Vikram but the problem was whether the .500/.450 NE is the same as the .500/.450 No 1 and I`ve just found that it isn`t. There were 19 different .500/.450 cartridges, all of which originated from black powder cartridges. There were at least three .500/.450 No 1s . Hopefully this link will take you to the appropriate page :
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bjhy ... 01&f=false
Make a man a fire and he`ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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