The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

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Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Post by xl_target » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:18 am

A little off topic but the Indian army is not alone in having issues with its primary small arms system.
The fate of the trouble G36 rifle has been revealed: German Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen announced on Wednesday that the Bundeswehr would seek immediate replacement for the rifle. From DW.de:

Germany’s military will have to find a replacement for the current G36 assault rifle, according to Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen. Special Forces troops are to receive new weapons immediately.
Germany’s military was likely to get a replacement for Heckler & Koch’s G36 rifles after Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen declared on Wednesday that the weapon had “no future in the German army in its current state of construction.”
The Defense Ministry would now work towards replacing the gun as soon as possible, von der Leyen said after she met with representatives of the parliamentary Defense Commission in Berlin.
Immediate replacement for soldiers
Special Forces deployed in conflict areas were to receive replacement weapons immediately, the minister added. However, she did not exclude the possibility of the army adopting a new version of the G36, produced by weapons company Heckler & Koch.
Problems with the assault rifle would be discussed within the Defense Ministry and initially there would be no parliamentary commission to examine the ministry’s findings, opposition parties said in Berlin.
The Left and the Green parties would at some point in time question Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere on the G36 affair. De Maiziere served as defense minister in 2010, when problems with the weapon first came to light.
Low accuracy at high temperatures
The assault rifle’s capabilities came under scrutiny after a study commissioned by the German Defense Ministry last year claimed “the weapons system did not fulfill the requirements.”
The weapon’s capacity to hit targets fell to 30 percent when the surrounding temperature reached 30 degrees Celsius (86 Fahrenheit) or when the weapon became hot through constant use, the report said.
The reason for the gun’s poor precision was its “complete system,” the research revealed.
Von der Leyen did not exclude the possibility that the next rifle could be from Heckler and Koch, nor even that it could be a variation of the G36 itself. However, the possibility of retrofit of older rifles -beyond re-using some mechanical components – seems distant; the Bundeswehr appears thoroughly dissatisfied with the weapon. - See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015 ... dnBUK.dpuf
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Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Post by ckkalyan » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:24 am

Thanks for sharing estousandy!

This is indeed a very courageous step taken by Lt. Col. Deepak Malhotra - I applaud his action - BRAVO! :cheering:
Lt Col (retd) Deepak Malhotra, the petitioner, alleged that because of "bureaucratic red tape" soldiers are made to use a "clearly inferior weapon" at the "risk of losing their lives".
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns!

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Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Post by nagarifle » Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:08 pm

what is everyone has being saying from younks
Nagarifle

if you say it can not be done, then you are right, for you, it can not be done.

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Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Post by ckkalyan » Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:30 pm

nagarifle wrote:what is everyone has being saying from younks
So nothing has happened so far and nothing is likely to happen? :(
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns!

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Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Post by aaren » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:00 am

Can anyone help me with the trajectory chart of INSAS 5.56 rifle or let me know the Ballistic Coefficient ?

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Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Post by nagarifle » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:14 am

not likely mate, as its only available to forces,
Nagarifle

if you say it can not be done, then you are right, for you, it can not be done.

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Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Post by xl_target » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:00 pm

aaren wrote:Can anyone help me with the trajectory chart of INSAS 5.56 rifle or let me know the Ballistic Coefficient ?
If they are using standard 5.56 x 45 NATO, all you need is the barrel length and you can get a close approximation of its trajectory by comparing it to other rifles firing the same ammo.
As far as the BC goes, it depends on the bullet that they are using. For example, Hornady's 55 gr. .224 FMJ-BT lead core projectile has a BC of .243.

The trajectory of a 55 gr FMJ bullet in .223/5.56X45 NATO, out of a 16" barrel, can be seen on the second post on this page.

If the INSAS does not use the same bullet, then you need the BC of the bullet and at the very least, the muzzle velocity of the bullet to make an approximation.
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Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Post by Army » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:20 am

5.56 is great to take a human down nothing else in my opinion also check out green tip 5.56 ammo love them have box’s full of them but for a Russia style ak weapon they should of kept 7.62 that’s what it was made for 5.56 is a Ar style rifle m16 type my 5.56 also can run 223. that’s the one good thing about Ar plat from.

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Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Post by drlizard » Sun May 27, 2018 4:58 pm

Reading this in 2018.
What a beautifully written and detailed analysis.

This rifle is what a rifle shouldn't be.

It's a shame we can't build a weapon of international standards in our country.

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Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Post by hornet22 » Sat Nov 05, 2022 12:15 pm

drlizard wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 4:58 pm
Reading this in 2018.
What a beautifully written and detailed analysis.

This rifle is what a rifle shouldn't be.

It's a shame we can't build a weapon of international standards in our country.
With all said the INSAS is still in use. The only big issue I see is the Plastic magazine which can break. The Army is still using it .

If they change the magazine to metal the problem will be solved . The black stock INSAS variant is said to be capable of fully automatic fire.

Problems do occur in Imported military weapons which are imported to India for the armed forces from well known makers.

The SLR and LMG made in ordinace factories were a sucess and the LMGs are still in use after several decades of use due to their reliability and effectivness.

Apart from cosmetics I dont think Indian make Military weapons are inferior to to their forieng counterparts.

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Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Post by timmy » Sun Nov 06, 2022 1:57 am

TwoRivers wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:23 am
timmy wrote: Early French Lebel ammunition used bronze as a bullet material ...
While "bronze" is often stated, the Balle D material was not bronze, but "high-copper brass", i.e. "gilding metal" in US terms.
I missed this years back. Going back over this, I would say that Two Rivers mostly correct.

Please review these topics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilding_metal

From the information in these articles, we review the common understanding of today that "Bronze" is generally an alloy of copper and tin, but in the past, the name "Bronze" was used for what we would call "Brass" today.

"Brass" is generally taken today to mean an alloy of copper and zinc.

"Gilding Metal." as the article says, would be "figures range from 95% copper and 5% zinc to “8 parts copper to 1 of zinc” (11% zinc)."

Referring to the wiki on 8mm Lebel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8×50mmR_Lebel

we're told that "in 1898 by a new design, a 12.8 g (198 grains) 90/10 bronze mono-metal, pointed (spitzer) boat-tail bullet called "balle D""

Ian McCollum, the author of Youtube's "Forgotten Weapons," the book "Chassepot to Famas: French Military Rifles 1866-2016" and a noted expert on French arms says, "This was a raadically new bullet design, made of solid brass instead of the traditional jacketed lead core ammunition." (p502)

So, by today's standards, the composition of the French Balle D monometal bullet would properly be termed "brass" as Ian McCollum and Two Rivers say, however calling the bullet "bronze" as many sources today report is more than likely based on older sources, where the word "bronze" is more loosely used to refer to a copper alloy of either tin or zinc (as the Wiki article relates).

Two Rivers's correction is therefore a proper observation.
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Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Post by drlizard » Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:17 pm

hornet22 wrote:
Sat Nov 05, 2022 12:15 pm

With all said the INSAS is still in use. The only big issue I see is the Plastic magazine which can break. The Army is still using it .

If they change the magazine to metal the problem will be solved . The black stock INSAS variant is said to be capable of fully automatic fire.

Problems do occur in Imported military weapons which are imported to India for the armed forces from well known makers.

The SLR and LMG made in ordinace factories were a sucess and the LMGs are still in use after several decades of use due to their reliability and effectivness.

Apart from cosmetics I dont think Indian make Military weapons are inferior to to their forieng counterparts.
Hey! Hope your doing well. I just want to point out that fully automatic fire should not be a selling point for a weapon or an assessment of its performance. Full auto is rarely used, if at all, in engagements. A semi auto is always preferred as it is more accurate. Even 3 round bursts are more controllable and therefore effective than full auto.

The main thing in my opinion is reliability and how modular it is. Part of the reason why the civilian AR15 platform or its military version is so popular in the US is because how modular it is.. a part goes kaput, you can easily field strip it and swap out that particular part, leaving everything else intact. Same can be said about the AK platform too, which is why it's replacing the INSAS. Reliable and easy to fix or mod.

Also, there must be different weapons with different cartridges for filling in various jobs. In the US Marines, from what I've seen on YouTube, there's guys with M4 carbine etc and then there's one guy with a SAW (squad automatic weapon). Two different modes of fire, two different ranges, two different roles they play.

Nowadays the Indian govt and armed forces have ordered AKs chambered in 7.62x39 and Sig 716 rifles chambered in 7.62x51 NATO. I think that's a great move!!

Honestly, I don't want to agree with your opinion that Indian made weapons are at par with foreign made ones. I don't have any concrete evidence but it's a gut feeling that countries like USA and Israel etc who are at war constantly will have better engineered weapons as a consequence of necessity. I may be wrong, I'm just guessing..

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Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Post by Automatic1947 » Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:29 am

Its more about the design, the ishapore make bolt action 7.62x51 full stock rifle is a popular collectors rifle abroad and is regarded as a well made rifle.

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Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Post by timmy » Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:18 pm

Automatic1947 wrote:
Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:29 am
Its more about the design, the ishapore make bolt action 7.62x51 full stock rifle is a popular collectors rifle abroad and is regarded as a well made rifle.
My RFI 2A is certainly well regarded by me -- it is a well made rifle.
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Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Post by drlizard » Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:37 pm

Automatic1947 wrote:
Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:29 am
Its more about the design, the ishapore make bolt action 7.62x51 full stock rifle is a popular collectors rifle abroad and is regarded as a well made rifle.
I didn't know much about this rifle or that it is regarded as well built even abroad.
Is it in use by armed forces or police now, or can civilians buy it?
Thanks in advance!!
Regards.

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