Self-defence is a mug's game.

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Nattu
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Self-defence is a mug's game.

Post by Nattu » Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:03 am

So you have got a license for a gun for self protection and are the proud owner of an Ashani .32. Better think ten times before using it for self defence and then don't. A forest ranger who, under attack by Sandlewood smugglers, shot and killed one of them with his service gun, was prosecuted for murder, sentenced to life imprisonment in trial court, to 5 years in HC, and acquitted in SC. If this is the treatment given to a presidential appointee, what are your chances of not being prosecuted and convicted?

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Re: Self-defence is a mug's game.

Post by WhoCantBeNamed » Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:39 pm


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Re: Self-defence is a mug's game.

Post by Nattu » Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:03 am

There are about 2.5 L police officers
issued with service pistols. In one particular year there were about 650 cases of use of guns by Police. This is only 0.25% utilisation. Why? Because police allowed to use it mostly for self defence only, just like ordinary citizens. This will possibly be followed by enquiry and likely prosecution. Private citizens should never consider getting a gun for self-defence. For sports, recreation, ego trip, whatever but never for self-defence.

Killing to defend oneself is murder.

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Re: Self-defence is a mug's game.

Post by Woods » Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:05 pm

Nattu wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:03 am
............

Killing to defend oneself is murder.
Not in law but in reality . However , you will come out in one piece afterall . You'll pay in money , time , hassles and unwarranted changes in your life ( ofcourse only if you're caught )
Great men are not born great , they grow great .

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Re: Self-defence is a mug's game.

Post by miroflex » Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:27 pm

Nattu wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:03 am
There are about 2.5 L police officers
issued with service pistols. In one particular year there were about 650 cases of use of guns by Police. This is only 0.25% utilisation. Why? Because police allowed to use it mostly for self defence only, just like ordinary citizens. This will possibly be followed by enquiry and likely prosecution. Private citizens should never consider getting a gun for self-defence. For sports, recreation, ego trip, whatever but never for self-defence.

Killing to defend oneself is murder.

It depends entirely on how you view your life.

Several studies have shown that most people have a greater fear of speaking on a public platform than they have of death. They would prefer to lie in a coffin at their own funeral with others eulogising them rather than performing a similar duty at someone else's funeral.

If you prefer to be maimed for life or die without lifting a finger to save yourself or others that is purely your choice. Of course you could develop such proficiency in unarmed combat that you don't need weapons for self defence.

I personally would never be able to live with myself if I was carrying a firearm and allowed someone to be violently assaulted or raped or murdered in my presence without intervening in an appropriate manner. This does not necessarily mean that I would kill the assailant. There is a study carried out recently in the USA which found that in 95 per cent of cases the criminal backs off on being confronted with a weapon.

I will try to locate the study and post a link on this thread.
"To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived." Sherlock Holmes in "The Adventure Of The Copper Beeches" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: Self-defence is a mug's game.

Post by timmy » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:16 am

Miroflex, you have hit the nail on the head.

Of course, in the present situation, conditions force one to either defend one's self and risk prosecution, or risk accepting whatever some goonda might wish to do.

The evil of this situation is that it forces the ordinary citizen to accept all of the risk inherent in either situation: accept the evil from the goonda or from the government.

I think you have outlined the issue well: rather than strictly assessing possibilities and assigning weights to levels of harm, as moral creatures, we must also live with our consciences when and after making our decisions, and the condition of our consciences then can become the controlling factor.
“The principle of self defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi.” - Martin Luther King, Jr.

“When someone shows you who they are, believe them.” - Maya Angelou

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Re: Self-defence is a mug's game.

Post by 4X4 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:54 pm

A person who is aware of his Job Profile and knowing that it involves Danger elements in terms of being attacked in line of duty and knowing that he can't use his self defense weapon ( here a gun ) , to protect himself from attackers, needs to practice Self Defense techniques at least once a week.

The Self Defense practice session lasts for about 2 hours , wherein as per the Type of Threat involved, one should build up Reaction Skills . Of course just carrying a Gun isn't sufficient here , one needs to carry Sharp Blade Folding Knives , Knuckle Dusters & good quality Pepper Sparay additionally. Incase of Close Combat these weapons are supposedly the best. Though one should know how to use them, which body parts if cut/sliced with a knife gives enormous pain that can decapitate the attacker. There are several videos on YouTube that teach skills to use a sharp blade knife to cause extreme non life threatening injury to attacker till additional reinforcement arrives for your help or to buy time to run away from the attacker to a safe zone. Ofcourse one needs to wear Hand Gloves before handling the knife for various reasons of safety. Never use the knife blade on delicate areas like Neck , or Abdomen Stab or areas where blood arteries travel as it will cause death due to bleeding which makes you a murderer by law. If you do any Anatomy Study and search for exposed arm or leg Tendons , and slice the tendons it will immobilize the attacker.

Now I'm sure my buddies here will dispute saying that how to fight in close combat as chances of self harm are there....yes ofcourse. But if we know that we are in line of duty where danger prevails in every step of life then one must invest an hour in Exercises and making the body Fitter & Stronger . If you have an extremely strong arms developed by practicing Boxing , then one blow with a knuckle duster on nose of opponent will not kill him but definitely give so much pain due to damage of the nasal cartilage and fracture to bone , that he can't attack back faster it won't kill him, here if you exercise everyday and are used to even Jogging , then you can run away from the attacker. Now the same knuckle duster if hit on delicate areas like forehead or temples can cause internal bleeding and can cause death and you become a murderer by law. Hence Please study self defense that teaches you areas where one needs to hit & where not to hit.

The whole goal of training in self defense and exercising is to Not Kill the attacker, but just injure him that much that you buy time to run away and save your life. This can be learnt only by practicing with a buddy.

Ofcourse carrying a gun in some scenarios can be an advantage, but not always. One would need to train at least once a week by shooting on targets and judging point of aim for various distances and should above that know where the gun shoots and the penetration depth for various elements. If one can practice, then shooting at feet is better than legs as then chances of damaging an blood artery is less , so you are giving pain by shooting on feet but if one ends up puncturing the artery by shooting arm or leg, chances of causing death is evident and you become a murderer as per law. Hence if one isn't trained to shoot , or doesn't carry a gun that shoots well , then better refrain from using it for defense even if you own a Registered License issued by Government.

A Pepper Spray buys you enough time , provided you have practised using it at least using one can once a week on various objects and mastering the technique. Knowing the length of reach of spray , the spread , the rebound of droplets on yourself is all important in learning the techniques. Just carrying a can with no Reflex Training will not buy you time. Wearing hand gloves and proper wider eyewear is important here.

I'm sure many won't agree on my views here. Also as per law it isn't legal to carry a knife or knuckle Dusters, but even a simple kitchen or chef's knife can be used for self defense, provided one practises the art.

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Re: Self-defence is a mug's game.

Post by nagarifle » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:15 pm

when one is taking about self defence, the rules is simple, if the offender is unarmed you get armed. if the offender has a knife you get gun.

most who give advice about self defence probably never had to defend them selves from direct unpredicted knife attacks, when a self defence expert gives advice on how to deal with knife has probley learnt the techniques in the class room and never taken it outside the class room. most attacks with knife happen at close quarter and one can not know until one sees the knife. As a young man i learnt knife defence and attack, how stupid i was then. it was no more then both parties dancing like sword fighters in the old movies, reality is much different. most attacks dont come with fancy flipping the knife this way or that but in short repeated punching motions,

as for unarmed self-defence the one who lands the first painful blow gets his way most of the time. no fancy kung fu monikies dance will help.
lets take a quick look at the army tactics, what is known as superior fire power, which means in simple terms, one of them and 3 of you.

the best thing to have is will and motivation to stay alive without this it does not matter how long one has stayed in kungfu monkey monastery or how long one has trained as an arm chair commando.

if you are worried about hurting the opponent then stay away and out of a fight of any kind.

the best self defence is not to have live attackers coming at you. courts, jail guards are much easy to deal with, as the old master of self defence say better to be few years in then few feet under. or as my teacher say hit=run and live to fight another day.
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Re: Self-defence is a mug's game.

Post by Woods » Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:29 pm

nagarifle wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:15 pm
when one is taking about self defence, the rules is simple, if the offender is unarmed you get armed. if the offender has a knife you get gun.

most who give advice about self defence probably never had to defend them selves from direct unpredicted knife attacks, when a self defence expert gives advice on how to deal with knife has probley learnt the techniques in the class room and never taken it outside the class room. most attacks with knife happen at close quarter and one can not know until one sees the knife. As a young man i learnt knife defence and attack, how stupid i was then. it was no more then both parties dancing like sword fighters in the old movies, reality is much different. most attacks dont come with fancy flipping the knife this way or that but in short repeated punching motions,

as for unarmed self-defence the one who lands the first painful blow gets his way most of the time. no fancy kung fu monikies dance will help.
lets take a quick look at the army tactics, what is known as superior fire power, which means in simple terms, one of them and 3 of you.

the best thing to have is will and motivation to stay alive without this it does not matter how long one has stayed in kungfu monkey monastery or how long one has trained as an arm chair commando.

if you are worried about hurting the opponent then stay away and out of a fight of any kind.

the best self defence is not to have live attackers coming at you. courts, jail guards are much easy to deal with, as the old master of self defence say better to be few years in then few feet under. or as my teacher say hit=run and live to fight another day.
:cheers: ROTFL
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Re: Self-defence is a mug's game.

Post by Woods » Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:38 pm

Our comfort zones are degenerating and killing us . We must not forget that we may be called to pay to live and defend ourselves and our family . It's just a question of place and time that variance in that " payment" occurs . And we must proudly endure whatever comes our way to do a just deed that circumstances warranted. WHATEVER .
Great men are not born great , they grow great .

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Re: Self-defence is a mug's game.

Post by Nattu » Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:15 am

The right to private defence is an illusion. It is in the statutes just for show. Perhaps some member may know, how many incidents of licensed gun usage for self defence were there say in 2019, and in how many of them there was no prosecution. Perhaps
a magisterial inquest with jury should be conducted before any prosecution.

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Re: Self-defence is a mug's game.

Post by nagarifle » Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:29 pm

round and round we go, where it stops no bodies knows.
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Re: Self-defence is a mug's game.

Post by Mr.Shome » Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:03 am

Out of the preservation instinct, even a fatal punch or kick, scissor stab, push down the stairs....the list goes on, opens one to prosecution. So, what's wrong with a shot? It's just the stigma about guns that blows matters out of proportion...my personal opinion
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Re: Self-defence is a mug's game.

Post by Nattu » Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:34 pm

It was interesting to read that in US, the NRA and another organisation-USCCA are offering insurance to its members, which will give them legal help for putting up bail, defense of criminal and civil prosecutions and psychiatric help, if a member had to exercise his right to self defence and injured or killed somebody. Without such an organisational back-up, use of guns for self defence in India would be asking for trouble.

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Re: Self-defence is a mug's game.

Post by rahulbdelhi » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:36 pm

It would be great if we could create a compiled a list of lawyers who specialize in arms laws, and who are passionate to help people in need.

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