.33 Winchester

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miroflex
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.33 Winchester

Post by miroflex » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:56 pm

Hi,

The Model 1886 lever action rifle was chambered for several cartridges including the .33 Winchester center fire or WCF. The caliber remained in use till the 1930s when it was phased out. Wikipedia mentions that ammunition was commercially loaded till 1940.

I am being offered a rifle in this caliber with 30 cartridges. Do fellow members have any knowledge of any sources of supply for this cartridge or will the rifle prove to be a dead investment? Any advice is welcome.

Regards.
"To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived." Sherlock Holmes in "The Adventure Of The Copper Beeches" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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TC
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Re: .33 Winchester

Post by TC » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:18 pm

I have not seen a single .33 Winchester cartridge in the arms market in three decades.

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Re: .33 Winchester

Post by cottage cheese » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:56 pm

I have a partial 1886 in .33WCF.... a good wall hanger... that's about it.
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Re: .33 Winchester

Post by goodboy_mentor » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:02 am

Unless you have some means to reload the cartridges, it is better to avoid buying this rifle.

If you want to buy this rifle without ammunition as an antiquity then you may go ahead if it is not less than 100 years old, since firearms not less than 100 years do not require a license under Arms Act 1959. Instead you will have to register it under the Antiquities and Art Treasures Act, 1972.
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Re: .33 Winchester

Post by miroflex » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:46 pm

Dear TC, Cottage Cheese and Goodboy_Mentor,

Thanks for your inputs and advice. I have always been partial to lever action repeating rifles, perhaps due to their association with a romantic view of the Wild West and Wells Fargo shotgun guards swinging their Winchesters(mostly .44-40 or .44 WCF) forward when confronted with dangerous situations.

I feel that the .33 WCF was a cartridge with a lot of potential which did not get a fair deal. I may be overdoing it in trying to redress the balance by buying and using a .33. That is why I was exploring the possibility of finding out about the availability of either factory loaded or of reloaded ammunition from fellow members.

Any further suggestions or advice will be welcome.

Regards.
"To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived." Sherlock Holmes in "The Adventure Of The Copper Beeches" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: .33 Winchester

Post by hks2056 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:25 pm

Dear Miroflex
Why do you want to flog a horse which is long since dead for all intent and purposes. Be happy with your IOF 315. Most of the officially condemned maneater leopards in Uttarakhand have been killed with much denigrated IOF 315 rifle.What is good for maneater leopards is good enough for two legged ones. As self defence rifle against humans up to 100 yards the heavy 240 grain bullet of 315 has very few peers.If the urge is to buy something then buy contemporary weapon.It was thirty three years ago when we first exchanged our notes on arms and ammunition.Why go for something whose time is long since over.If required then upgrade and don`t downgrade to something of dubious reliability and with almost zero resale prospects.
regards

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Re: .33 Winchester

Post by goodboy_mentor » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:53 pm

Maybe he likes antiques, that is why informed him the option to buy it as an antiquity so that one space on his arms license does not get wasted.
"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992

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Re: .33 Winchester

Post by miroflex » Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:29 pm

hks2056 wrote:Dear Miroflex
Why do you want to flog a horse which is long since dead for all intent and purposes. Be happy with your IOF 315. Most of the officially condemned maneater leopards in Uttarakhand have been killed with much denigrated IOF 315 rifle.What is good for maneater leopards is good enough for two legged ones. As self defence rifle against humans up to 100 yards the heavy 240 grain bullet of 315 has very few peers.If the urge is to buy something then buy contemporary weapon.It was thirty three years ago when we first exchanged our notes on arms and ammunition.Why go for something whose time is long since over.If required then upgrade and don`t downgrade to something of dubious reliability and with almost zero resale prospects.
regards
Dear Hemant,

How time flies! It is difficult to believe that is nearly thirty three years since we rudely assailed the peaceful air of the Queen of the Hills with the discordant noise and smoke of our rifles and revolvers.

You will recollect that I have always had a fondness for swimming against the tide of popular opinion. I have not improved with age and still have a tendency to take a position contrary to the established one.

One problem that all of us in India are facing are exorbitant prices for all kinds of arms and ammunition, particularly handguns. In this dismal scenario I have been searching for a reasonably priced rifle. I find that even odd and obsolete bores are exhorbitantly priced by dealers who charge hefty commissions on sales of arms.

I have been offered the .33 Winchester for a figure closely approximating to its international price. Thus I may not face a loss on resale. Hence I was exploring the possibility of finding .33 WCF cartridges. I hope this explains the reason behind my enquiries.

Regards.
Last edited by miroflex on Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived." Sherlock Holmes in "The Adventure Of The Copper Beeches" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: .33 Winchester

Post by winnie_the_pooh » Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:37 pm

miroflex wrote:I have always had a fondness for swimming against the tide of popular opinion.
In the present context you are swimming against reason but it is your money.....doubt you will get 'international price' for it when you sell it.
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences.

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Re: .33 Winchester

Post by timmy » Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:53 am

miroflex:
I have always been partial to lever action repeating rifles, perhaps due to their association with a romantic view of the Wild West and Wells Fargo shotgun guards swinging their Winchesters(mostly .44-40 or .44 WCF) forward when confronted with dangerous situations.
I see this history a little bit differently than you do. The world of the .44-40 was the world of the Winchester 1873. This old veteran served for many years and is probably the weapon that most qualifies as "The Gun That Won The West." However, in reality, it was the last gasp of an obsolescent mechanism which was to be eclipsed soon after its introduction, even though a larger version that fired larger and more powerful cartridges, the 1876 "Centennial" model was soon introduced, as well.

These guns certainly were achievers, but their actions hearkened back to a goofy looking repeating handgun called the "Volcanic," developed by none other than that team of Smith & Wesson back in the 1850s.

In contrast, the Winchester 1886 was a whole different sort of gun. The West was being tamed, by that time. And, Winchester was between a rock and a hard place. A competitor, Marlin, had brought out a lever action rifle that chambered the big Government .45-70 cartridge without a whimper, something which the last-gasp toggle link 1876 could not do. Around this time, a Winchester executive noticed a beautiful and mechanically perfect single shot rifle, made by a young unknown and unschooled man by the name of John Moses Browning. Winchester saw value in that gun and bought the rights to it. Then, Browning developed the gun you are looking at, the Model 1886. Unlike the 1876, it was not clunky and weak -- it was heroically strong. Unlike it's competitor Marlin, it was very smooth. Rather than just using a pragmatic mechanical approach like the Marlin, the 1886 exhibits those traits for which Browning designs have become so famous and so well-loved: The mechanical sophistication of the design, with its carefully considered angles and vectors, was and still is a joy simply to operate, even without shooting it! And, it was heroically strong! In short, it was as advanced as any repeating rifle on the planet when it came to strength, and it exceeded just about everything else in smoothness.

Nobody could look down the road and see that the bolt action was going to be the repeating rifle of the future. Browning, a devotee of certain mechanical principles (Like Henry Ford, with his devotion to the planetary gear set), loved planar designs -- designs that worked only in two, rather than three planes. (There's nothing that rotates on a Z axis in a Browning design: Everything works on the X or the Y axis.)

So that big Browning you are looking at is, to me, like a jewel or a rare piece of art. The way all of the parts work together so harmoniously, both in sound and in smoothness, locking the action like a vault, is a real thing of beauty. Sure, there are more practical guns around (you can't put a scope on it, for instance, and if you drill it and try to, don't tell me about it!), but I love guns that have a special something to them, myself. I like my guns to have a history, or a special design feature, or something that sets them apart from the run-of-the-mill mass produced products offered today.

A gun, to some people, is very much like a woman. Do you know the words to the song, When a Man Loves a Woman, made famous by Percy Sledge? Part of that song goes like this:
When a man loves a woman
Can't keep his mind on nothing else
He'll trade the world
For the good thing he's found
If she's bad he can't see it
She can do no wrong
Turn his back on his best friend
If he put her down

When a man loves a woman
Spend his very last dime
Tryin' to hold on to what he needs
He'd give up all his comfort
Sleep out in the rain
If she said that's the way it ought to be
So, a gun can be just like what old Percy sang about his woman: If you love it, if it appeals to you, if it is speaking to you in some way, then it's something you will consider. Even if you know you will have a terrible time finding ammo for it, maybe it doesn't even matter -- you love it, and you have to have it, just like Percy's woman.

Yes, I've got guns like that. My Wife thinks I'm silly, because I'll often go to the gun safe when I'm watching TV and get out my Finn M39 and just hold it. I love the feel of that old, cold Russian steel and the warmth of the Arctic Birch stock. I like thinking about how sweetly it shoots, and how I look forward to pulling the trigger and feeling that old war horse roar and buck against my shoulder, and I like remembering the faces of people who were surprised with just how good it could shoot.

Now there's some people reading my post that are thinking that what I'm writing here is a bunch of rubbish. And to them, it really is rubbish. They see a gun as simply a tool to do a job. There's not a lot that is romantic about their view of a gun at all. If it gets the job done, that's the choice to make. If not, unload it and get something else.

So, my advice to you is to first figure out which of these two kinds of people you are: If you fall in love with a gun, and this 1886 speaks to you -- if you'll turn your back on your best friend, if he puts her down -- then you ought to consider it.

If, on the other hand, you just want a gun to do a certain job, then maybe you should pass and look at something else.
Regards,
tim

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Re: .33 Winchester

Post by hks2056 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:25 am

Dear Timmy
You have put it very succinctly.I hope that it resolves Miroflex`s conundrum.
Regards

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Re: .33 Winchester

Post by miroflex » Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:51 am

winnie_the_pooh wrote:
miroflex wrote:I have always had a fondness for swimming against the tide of popular opinion.
In the present context you are swimming against reason but it is your money.....doubt you will get 'international price' for it when you sell it.
Sometimes I behave like Goldsmith's Village Schoolmaster.

"In argument they own'd his wondrous skill,
For e'en though vanquished he argued still."


Regards.
"To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived." Sherlock Holmes in "The Adventure Of The Copper Beeches" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: .33 Winchester

Post by miroflex » Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:56 am

Dear Timmy,

Thank you very much for your beautifully evocative piece on the good old Model 1886 Winchester lever action rifle. It echoes my sentiments exactly.

Regards.
"To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived." Sherlock Holmes in "The Adventure Of The Copper Beeches" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: .33 Winchester

Post by goodboy_mentor » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:51 pm

I am able to understand your viewpoints. Then you have practically two options, either buy it as an antique piece or make your own arrangements for reloading the cartridges.
"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992

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Re: .33 Winchester

Post by miroflex » Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:40 pm

goodboy_mentor wrote:I am able to understand your viewpoints. Then you have practically two options, either buy it as an antique piece or make your own arrangements for reloading the cartridges.
Dear Goodboy_Mentor,

Thank you very much for your advice and support.

Regards.
"To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived." Sherlock Holmes in "The Adventure Of The Copper Beeches" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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