New Member from Gurgaon (Gurugram)

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legacy
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New Member from Gurgaon (Gurugram)

Post by legacy » Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:58 pm

A Very Happy New Year to fellow members.

I joined today looking for guidance. My late father had a wonderful collection of guns, which have now passed on to us. I have to now decide what to do with them. I really would not like to sell any of them. They have a lot of sentimental value to me. But with the restrictive laws I have to figure out what my options are. I have:

1. Pistol .32 bore - Carl Walther
2. Pistol .32 bore - Mauser
3. Rifle double bolt action - W. J. Jeffery, King Street St James London
4. Rifle .22 bore - Zbrojovka Brno
5. Double Barrel Gun - Holland & Holland

I would like to know, if I am forced to part with one or two of the above weapons then which of the above are the least rare / precious.

Where in Gurgaon / Delhi are good weapon dealers.

Look forward to an educational exchange.

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Re: New Member from Gurgaon (Gurugram)

Post by revolver » Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:17 pm

Welcome to IFG.
Wow. That’s really an envious collection. The present arms law allows you to keep two weapons and a third .22 rifle subject to you being a member of a rifle association. So if I were to choose among the five guns in your possession I would recommend that you keep the walther pistol, the double bolt rifle and the Brno. Also see if you can get the Mauser and the DBBL converted to curio. Considering your father possessed all five guns, it is very likely that two weapons may already be a curio.
It would really be nice to see the pics of all your guns if you don’t mind posting them here.

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Re: New Member from Gurgaon (Gurugram)

Post by legacy » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:26 pm

Thank you revolver.

Pics attached.

Can you guide me on what conversion to curio entails.
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Re: New Member from Gurgaon (Gurugram)

Post by Prabhath » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:40 pm

Welcome aboard.

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Re: New Member from Gurgaon (Gurugram)

Post by Vikram » Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:58 pm

Welcome aboard, Legacy. Nice collection there. May we know the calibre of the double rifle?
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Re: New Member from Gurgaon (Gurugram)

Post by revolver » Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:09 pm

legacy wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:26 pm
Thank you revolver.

Pics attached.

Can you guide me on what conversion to curio entails.
Beautiful collection Legacy. Kindly go through the below mentioned threads and you can gain a better understanding of what entails ‘curio’ weapons and conversion of weapons to ‘curio weapons’. In case of any further queries, kindly post here so that they can be addressed. Regards.

viewtopic.php?t=27848

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=28447

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Re: New Member from Gurgaon (Gurugram)

Post by legacy » Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:50 pm

Vikram wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:58 pm
Welcome aboard, Legacy. Nice collection there. May we know the calibre of the double rifle?
No clue, Vikram Can you tell me from the attached picture?
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Re: New Member from Gurgaon (Gurugram)

Post by Vikram » Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:28 pm

legacy wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:50 pm
No clue, Vikram Can you tell me from the attached picture?

If you look on the sides of the barrels near the breech, you would see the calibre engraved. Also, please look at the barrel flats for calibre and the proof marks. Please take a few clear photos of the rifle in proper lighting and post here so that we can identify the details and possibly the year of manufacture.

I am attaching a few examples of what to photograph. Photos are taken from here:
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Re: New Member from Gurgaon (Gurugram)

Post by 4X4 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:35 pm

Welcome Legacy

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Re: New Member from Gurgaon (Gurugram)

Post by Shivaji.Dasgupta » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:00 pm

Welcome on board Legacy
Regards

Shivaji

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Re: New Member from Gurgaon (Gurugram)

Post by legacy » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:53 pm

Vikram wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:28 pm

If you look on the sides of the barrels near the breech, you would see the calibre engraved. Also, please look at the barrel flats for calibre and the proof marks. Please take a few clear photos of the rifle in proper lighting and post here so that we can identify the details and possibly the year of manufacture.

...
Pictures of the engravings on the W. J. Jeffery Double Rifle attached along with more pics of the gun. It has the following texts:

CORDITE 55 - 400 MAX
400 EX
NP, BV, BP

On the barrel: GUSSSTAHL KRUPP

Can you tell what bore and year it is. Can I have it classified as Curio?
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Re: New Member from Gurgaon (Gurugram)

Post by legacy » Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:31 pm

revolver wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:09 pm

Beautiful collection Legacy. Kindly go through the below mentioned threads and you can gain a better understanding of what entails ‘curio’ weapons and conversion of weapons to ‘curio weapons’. In case of any further queries, kindly post here so that they can be addressed. Regards.

viewtopic.php?t=27848

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=28447
Thank you so much revolver, for pointing me in the right direction. Have done my research. Putting down what I have learned so that my understanding may be corrected, if so required, and maybe help others. The following documents may be referred:

1. The Arms Act, 1959
2. The Arms (Amendment) Act, 2019
3. The Arms Rules, 2016 ("Rules" for short)
4. Arms (Amendment) Rules, 2020

Most relevant for "Curio" weapons are the Rules and the Arms (Amendment) Rules, 2020. The Rules in sub-rule (17) of Rule 2 defines "curio":
(17) “curio” means a small arm manufactured at least fifty years prior to the current date or certified by the curator of a Government regulated museum or that derives at least half of its monetary value from the fact that it is novel, rare, bizarre, or associated with some historical figure, period, or event and includes an antique small arm;
Not to be confused with "antique small arm" defined in sub-rule (3):
(3) “antique small arm” means firearms manufactured before 1899;
The Arms (Amendment) Rules, 2020 modifies definition of "antique small arm" and clarifies that no license is required for "curio":
2. In the Arms Rules, 2016, -

(i) in rule 2, in sub-rule (3), for the words and figures “firearms manufactured before 1899”, the words “firearm which has been in existence for not less than one hundred years;” shall be substituted;

(ii) in rule 10, after sub-rule(5), following sub-rules shall be inserted, namely:-

(a) “(6) Small arms falling under the category of curio shall be kept securely and out of reach of other persons by the owner. Such small arms shall not be used, carried or transported without the prescribed licence.”

(b) “(7) No licence is required for Indian citizens for acquisition, possession of small arms falling under the category of curio. However, appropriate licence as prescribed would be required for use or to carry or transport such small arms. Without the endorsement of such firearms in the prescribed licence of the owner, no ammunition shall be sold for their use.”
So apparently "Small Arms" (defined in sub-rule (51) of Rule 2 of Rules) which were manufactured at least fifty years ago can be purchased and/or owned without need of any license and without the need to "Deactivate" the weapon (see Rule 81 of Rules). License is required to transport, carry or use the curio and to purchase ammunition for the curio.

So those of us who would like to simply own some of these old and beautiful masterpieces of craftsmanship without having to disfigure them the law seems to have given us the option of "curio". The question now is how to practically go about it.

Has anybody here had any weapon declared a curio?

The thread at https://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=28447 though it claims "weapon allowed to be kept under Curio rule" is actually a case of a weapon allowed under the "antique small arm" rule. Perhaps the same principles should apply for curios, but a direct example would be more convincing.

How does one establish the age of a weapon? I understand contacting the manufacturers is one option. I have been able to collect the following contact info:

1. Holland & Holland: [email protected]
2. W. J. Jeffery: [email protected]

Can anyone share any other contact info for the above 2 manufacturers and for Carl Walther, Mauser and Zbrojovka Brno.

Can age be established by the engravings on the gun barrels? See attached pictures.

Thank you.
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Re: New Member from Gurgaon (Gurugram)

Post by Vikram » Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:24 pm

legacy wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:53 pm
Pictures of the engravings on the W. J. Jeffery Double Rifle attached along with more pics of the gun. It has the following texts:

CORDITE 55 - 400 MAX
400 EX
NP, BV, BP

On the barrel: GUSSSTAHL KRUPP

Can you tell what bore and year it is. Can I have it classified as Curio?
It is .400 Jeffery Nitro Express also known as .450/400 Nitro Express 3-inch. Not to be confused with the .450/400 3, 1/4" cartridge. The calibre must be written on the barrels. Have you looked for all the markings on the barrels? It has Birmingham proof marks. The serial number makes it early 20th century (My guess). You should contact J. Robertson.
GUSSSTAHL KRUPP
Nothing but the the steel used to make the barrels. krupp Steel is from Germany.
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Re: New Member from Gurgaon (Gurugram)

Post by captrakshitsharma » Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:00 pm

Great guns !! . Do try to keep them in the family . Perhaps try to get licenses for other members of the family . Welcome to IFG, a place where one makes friends for life !! Happy shooting !!
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Re: New Member from Gurgaon (Gurugram)

Post by StampMaster » Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:53 pm

Hello,

I suggest you keep the weapons in family, as already said you can get 2 weapons for each individual. Get a No Objection from other family members (legal heir of deceased) and distribute among the family. It could License holder's son, daughter, daughter in law and grand kids.

Cheers.
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