The Self-defence conundrum.

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Ambi
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Re: The Self-defence conundrum.

Post by Ambi » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:06 am

eljefe wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:14 pm
An Interesting read.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/202 ... FrJ4xWnbtQ
Yes interesting indeed. Thanks for posting it. Makes the valid point that one shouldn't carry a gun or even buy one, unless one is prepared to shoot without second thoughts. But the majority of Indians aren't like that. They are brought up to believe that killing even the worst fellow is an unforgivable sin. Being prosecuted afterwards subjecting the family to ignomy is another deterrent. This aspect is well brought out in some of the topics in this forum itself.
e-g

https://www.indiansforguns.com/viewtopi ... 14&t=28042
( Where is 'nattu' by the way?). Perhaps, a course of training is required on psychological, legal and all other aspects of self-defence is needed.

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Re: The Self-defence conundrum.

Post by eljefe » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:05 pm

Now you know why the NSG and similar alphabet soup types put away 50-70k rounds per person per year (!)of mostly headshots in their ‘kill houses’? Muscle memory predominates over morality. When one sees the target in the aights, you squeeze. Gets drilled as a reflex. Simple. PTSD comes later...
Cant expect that with 10 rounds practice per year. Sad sign of the times where a licence is granted for self defence and one is given 25 or 50 rounds to achieve it.
''It dont mean a thing, if it aint got that zing!''

"...Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..."

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Re: The Self-defence conundrum.

Post by timmy » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:10 pm

Ambi wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:06 am
eljefe wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:14 pm
An Interesting read.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/202 ... FrJ4xWnbtQ
Yes interesting indeed. Thanks for posting it. Makes the valid point that one shouldn't carry a gun or even buy one, unless one is prepared to shoot without second thoughts. But the majority of Indians aren't like that. They are brought up to believe that killing even the worst fellow is an unforgivable sin. Being prosecuted afterwards subjecting the family to ignomy is another deterrent. This aspect is well brought out in some of the topics in this forum itself.
" . . . one shouldn't carry a gun or even buy one, unless one is prepared to shoot without second thoughts." - You are so right! But, I do think that we must ponder very carefully and fully the responsibility and consequences of going down this path, both moral and legal. There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone who decides not to carry for self-protection. Each must come to their own decision on the matter. When the chips are down -- that is no time for second thoughts. There is only time for reaction.

Brandishing a firearm to scare someone, as the article points out, is foolish. Who is to say whether the attacker is under the influence and willing to take any risk for that reason, or because the attacker lacks judgment, or because they don't think the person behind the gun doesn't have the determination to pull the trigger?

Shooting into the air is also foolish, as it violates the first rule of shooting: Know your target. Should the bullet come down and put some child's eye out, whose responsibility is that?

Shooting to wound is not only foolish, it is ignorant. The idea is to disable an attacker, and doing so stands the best chance of success when the shot is placed to the center of body mass. How some get the idea that it is a simple thing to hit a knee or some other extremity shows me that those who say this know nothing about guns or shooting them, and are definitely not the sort who should be carrying a gun for protection in the first place.

Having a gun and then having an attacker take it away: such a person has just put a gun into the hands of a criminal, and in my mind bears responsibility for whatever crimes the criminal commits with that gun. I knew of such a case, when I was young, and worked night shifts in a very bad part of town. A number of coworkers carried on night shifts, and one fellow, who carried a 6 inch barreled revolver in his attache case, was held up in the parking lot when he got off shift. Unfortunately for him, the criminal did not allow him enough time to open his brief case and retrieve his weapon. The gun was found over a year later in a car with other guns, after the police had chased it from a store robbery. My coworker put that gun into criminal hands. i think he should have been tried in court for this negligence.

At that same time, another coworker who did not carry asked me, "Would you really shoot someone for trying to steal a quarter?"

That was a good question, and I thought deeply about it. But, I thought, how do I know whether the attacker was only going to steal a quarter? How could I know what he would do after he robbed me, or whether he just wanted to kill me? (Such things were not unknown in that place and time.)

My conclusion was, why was it my responsibility to assume the risk and let a criminal do as he pleased with me? Shouldn't he take the risk as to whether I had a weapon, and whether i would use it?

I think the article el jefe posted was spot-on. This matter is no shoot 'em up movie or game. It's serious business. Those who consider this path need to think hard about what it means and what the consequences might be.

It is not like I have settled this in my mind, either. I served on the security team of a church for awhile, just a year ago. There had been a few threatening incidents there. I wondered, was it fitting for me to carry in a church with the intent to deter an attacker or someone threatening to attack?

The answer wasn't hard to come by -- I looked at the little children and decided that protecting one of them was worth what might come of my choice. If that sort of threat could be stopped, it was my duty to do so if it was within my power to do so.
“The principle of self defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi.” - Martin Luther King, Jr.

“When someone shows you who they are, believe them.” - Maya Angelou

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Re: The Self-defence conundrum.

Post by Ambi » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:49 am

Considering the amount of shooting practice required to shoot by reflex without firing warning shots or shooting to wound, to be effective in home defence, perhaps a 12 ga handgun with birdshot would-be the ideal weapon for home defence?
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Re: The Self-defence conundrum.

Post by timmy » Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:34 pm

Ambi: If you are interested about these things, I suggest you google the web for a document titled "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness". It is a USA Government FBI paper that presents the results of the FBI's study of handguns for its agents after an incident in 1986, when two men armed with rifles, handguns, and protected with body armor went on a rampage. Law enforcement had a terrible time getting this situation under control. Therefore, they began a study of what actually was needed to immobilize an attacker in future situations.

The bottom line to this, as you will see if you read the paper, is that a minimum of 305 mm of penetration is required to effectively and reliably disable an attacker. You realize that notions like "shoot him in the knee" may not disable an attacker, and extremities are a much harder target to hit. Brain, central nervous system, and cardio type shots are what's needed, the same as any big game hunter knows.

An ocean of ink has been spilled on this subject, but the scientific and concise paper I've recommended hits the high points and will start your thinking process down the right avenue. Then, you have a basis to consider other aspects of this matter.

When you consider bird shot and other small pellet sizes, consider how well you think that they might meet the 305 mm requirement -- clearly, they will not. As a matter of fact, I knew an individual who got involved in a store robbery and cut loose on the armed robber with a shotgun loaded with #6. The robber was a little bothered, but hardly immobilized or stopped by being hit.

There is debate about a shotgun load, but most folks who know seem to consider buckshot or a slug to be proper for self-defense. Buckshot, especially in the larger sizes, can retain enough energy at close range to arrest an attacker's evil intentions. However, in your situation, you may find a shotgun somewhat cumbersom for your purposes.

I'm not familiar with the legality of sawed off shotguns, such as what's in the picture you have posted. Someone else will need to discuss that issue. But I would ask, are you actually going to try to carry such a thing? How will you conceal it, especially in warm weather, when you have light clothing? Another thing to think about is actually shooting something like that. Have you tried touching off a shotgun held with one hand? You may find it an interesting experience.

"firing warning shots"

What will the police think of you firing "warning shots"? What will you do if a goonda claims you were trying to murder him? As I've mentioned, how can where the bullet lands be known?

"shooting to wound"

If it takes a lot of practice to shoot well and effectively, how much more will it take to do so on an extremity, that is possibly moving and certainly smaller than where you really want to aim? Again, if you aren't familiar with handgun shooting, it would be well to give it a try and see how easy it is to hit a defenseless piece of paper at a given range, much less to do so in a hurry. Add to that a moving attacker, split second thinking and events, and your adrenaline coursing through your body, and you'll see that it's not so easy to hit something, even at what you considered to be a short distance away.

(BTW, put away the notion that the shotgun is going to eject a cone of destruction. It won't work that way!)

Were I in your shoes, I would be looking for a 32 revolver or a 32 Auto pistol. A "Star" pistol, which is a Chinese copy of the Soviet Tokarev TT33 might be an alternative, but there are issues with that, as well. Sticking with 32 S&W Long or 32 Auto means that you can actually get ammunition for your gun at exhorbitant, rather than stratospheric prices.

Again, were I in your shoes, I'd try to find the money for a really nice used Colt 32 or secondly, a Smith and Wesson 32. I'm not talking about something beat-up or even well-used, I mean something nice. If you aren't familiar with guns, you need someone to check a used gun out for you that you can trust. For instance, is it in time? Does it lock up soundly and is the lockwork reliable?

Should you want to go the pistol route, then a Colt Pocket Pistol is what you want, again in nice condition. The Ashani is a copy of the Colt Pocket Pistol. You will want it to be checked for operation, especially a reliable safety, and you should know whether ammo feeds smoothly and reliably through it. An extra magazine or two would also be nice.

Granted, you will pay a lot of money for something like this. Everyone else wants one, as well, and there's a reason for this.

If you go the IOF or Ashani route, you will need to be doubly vigilant about the operation of either one.

I'm sorry to tell you, that in your quest for personal security, most avenues have been blocked for you and there aren't many reasonable options.

And, as far as practicing, with the limitations that you face, I would be strongly considering getting an air pistol -- a good one, not some replica toy. At least you will be able to familiarize yourself with trigger control and sight picture, and you will train yourself 9or have someone train you) to shoot well. It may not be the same kind of shooting that you have in mind, but shooting is shooting, and with a limited quota of ammunition, you need to be throwing lead downrange, even if it is small. That's one thing I'd do, anyway.

Consider this:

https://gundigest.com/more/how-to/firea ... l-shooting

You can see that your work is cut out for you, and an air pistol can get you down the road with some of these concepts, because you can really practice them enough for your mind and body to learn something.
“The principle of self defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi.” - Martin Luther King, Jr.

“When someone shows you who they are, believe them.” - Maya Angelou

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Re: The Self-defence conundrum.

Post by eljefe » Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:09 pm

+1 to what Timmy said above.
I have seen legal 12 ga 'shorty ' shotguns with a hockey stick stock in Delhi.Legal?Yes.
Considering another point-the standard shaktiman or KF loads are quite heavy loads.
I tailor my SG (9x0.32" Lee buckshot balls)and Slug(Lyman 525 gr Hollow base or Lee 1 oz Key drive slug) with light loads. I use them in a 20" bbl u/o Mossberg Home defense gun and the slugs give me clover leaf groups at 25m, using a red dot sight.And a very decent spread of SG.The loads are comfortable to use one handed (for me).
Besides the horrendous muzzle blast and recoil of a full house loads in a short barrel, none of us have wrist and forearm strength of Arnie Schwarzenneger (? Sp) to resist the torque of the recoil!
''It dont mean a thing, if it aint got that zing!''

"...Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..."

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Re: The Self-defence conundrum.

Post by Ambi » Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:25 am

https://webpath.med.utah.edu/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html
Thank you Timmy ji for taking the time to explain the ramifications of self defence preparation. What appeared to be a simple buying a gun to face threats, is in reality much more complex. Your summing up
"I'm sorry to tell you, that in your quest for personal security, most avenues have been blocked for you and there aren't many reasonable options." Is the final word. I think that I'll concentrate on the recreational aspects of shooting with airgun and leave the self defence question for later.
Eljefe ji!
Thank you for sharing your experience with your shotgun. After seeing it I am convinced that a DBshotgun, in particular, a handy one, is the best choice for home defence. Trust the adrenaline to give the strength to withstand the recoil.

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Re: The Self-defence conundrum.

Post by eljefe » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:38 pm

Ambi wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:25 am
https://webpath.med.utah.edu/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html

Eljefe ji!
Thank you for sharing your experience with your shotgun. After seeing it I am convinced that a DBshotgun, in particular, a handy one, is the best choice for home defence. Trust the adrenaline to give the strength to withstand the recoil.

Thambi-Ji
Most times i prefer Thalaiva. Somedays , I’ll settle for Vadiyar . 😉
This time you’re forgiven...

Yup, a shorty 12 ga or even a PAG should be fine, as long as you dont carry it in an ankle holster 🤣
''It dont mean a thing, if it aint got that zing!''

"...Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..."

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Re: The Self-defence conundrum.

Post by Ambi » Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:29 pm

eljefe wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:38 pm

Thambi,
Most times i prefer Thalaiva. Somedays , I’ll settle for Vadiyar . 😉
This time you’re forgiven...

Yup, a shorty 12 ga or even a PAG should be fine, as long as you dont carry it in an ankle holster 🤣
Beg your pardon Thalaiva!
Perhaps GOI should legalise Desi Khatta, formulate design and performance criteria, and thereby utilise Mungair's craftsmanship and Sivakasi's fireworks expertise before they become defunct.

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Re: The Self-defence conundrum.

Post by timmy » Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:35 pm

Gentlemen, all of this is well and good, but to my way of thinking, there is only one Thalaivaa, "mind it!" Chuck Norris - not even close.
“The principle of self defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi.” - Martin Luther King, Jr.

“When someone shows you who they are, believe them.” - Maya Angelou

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Re: The Self-defence conundrum.

Post by Ambi » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:00 am

These short barrel shotguns could be the best option for home defence. Could be a goldmine for Indian manufacturers.
IMG_20210306_102155.png
IMG_20210306_102355.png
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Re: The Self-defence conundrum.

Post by partheus » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:11 pm

Ambi wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:00 am
These short barrel shotguns could be the best option for home defence. Could be a goldmine for Indian manufacturers.
IMG_20210306_102155.png
IMG_20210306_102355.png
As nice as these would be, they're a no-go here in India since any long gun with a barrel shorter than 20 inches falls under restricted firearms category :(

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Re: The Self-defence conundrum.

Post by Ambi » Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:49 am

partheus wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:11 pm

As nice as these would be, they're a no-go here in India since any long gun with a barrel shorter than 20 inches falls under restricted firearms category :(
The law says(I think) "Smooth bore guns having barrel of less than 20" in length" is prohibited bore.
If the barrel is rifled will it become non-prohibited bore?
If this gun is included in shooting competitions by NRAI will it become NPB? As I understand if a gun isn't used in shooting competitions it is PB.

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Re: The Self-defence conundrum.

Post by kumar1234 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:43 am

partheus wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:57 am
And, therein lies the problem with current firearm legislation. It doesn't even pass a cursory scrutiny. Apparently, you have to prove you're under threat to be considered for a self-defense license. So according to our legislators, crimes of chance (road robbery, snatch and grab etc) couldn't possibly happen and criminals will always give you a fair warning well in advance before making their move on you.

But, I believe the reason why this (and many other) nonsensical rules continue to abound is because most of us are too busy struggling to live to even consider them. How many actually bother to tune into a parliament session and then contact their MLAs with reservations, if any? Obviously, no change will happen until more people start asking questions.
You are so right. Arms licence should be like driving licence. Every legal responsible citizen should be able to get arms licence after proper training.

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