Buy Her a Gun - Economic Times

Discussions on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
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Buy Her a Gun - Economic Times

Post by AgentDoubleS » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:46 am

An article in the Sunday ET print edition. Quotes from Abhijeet and Rahul Roy.

In the late 1980s, a middle-aged woman was stalked by an unidentified man in a deserted street in California. The woman had been gang-raped earlier. After recovering from the ordeal, she had taken to keeping a revolver in her purse. So this time, she was prepared.

As the man closed in on her, she reached into her purse and gripped the small-calibre handgun she now carried and turned to face her assailant.

The attacker spotted the weapon in her hand. "He momentarily froze and studied her, noting carefully her look of combined revulsion, hate, fear and rage. He determined in that instant that, if pressed, she might shoot. He spun and exited the scene like a world-class sprinter," says a research paper published by criminologists who studied violence against women in the US.

The incident was recorded as part of a study done by Robert L Barrow and Gary Mauser on the possibility of reducing attacks on women by arming them.

ARMS & THE WOMAN

The gang rape of a student in Delhi has made it clear that the city is unsafe for women. And even as thousands of people took to the streets and many protested outside Rashtrapati Bhavan and Parliament, a group of people who vouch for the utility of guns to ward off attackers has a different perspective on the issue.

They believe that if India has a more liberal system of arms licencing, many women who have to deal with similar situations may have a better chance of saving themselves.

Rahul Roy is an industrialist based out of Gurgaon and his company manufactures writing pads. But like many entrepreneurs, Roy also does what he believes is social service. He wants the government to help people gain access to something he believes they need desperately today: a gun.

Roy, who speaks with passion on the right of an individual to own a gun, heads the National Association for Gun Rights in India (NAGRI), a body that has been campaigning for gun rights.

SAFETY CATCH

In 2010, NAGRI gave a presentation before a Joint Parliamentary Committee on how a lack of access to guns has become a deterrent to self-defence. The association claims that more than a hundred MPs signed a petition drafted by them and addressed to the prime minister. "Everybody is talking about handing out death sentences to rapists. But this happens only after the crime takes place. Only firearms can protect people, especially women and the elderly, today," says Roy.

The businessman, who hails from the martial community of Mohyals in Punjab, is a former national skeet shooting champion. He believes that owning a gun would help an individual face any kind of threat.

He points out that in India every policeman guards about 8,000 people, while in more prosperous countries about hundred-odd people are under the watch of a beat constable.

Roy sticks to his argument even when it is pointed out that the US, which has the maximum number of licensed civilian guns in the world, has had to pay for its liberal licensing policy, with a number of trigger-happy people opening fire at schools and shopping malls. "We are a more mature society than the US. India has a tradition of owning guns and I don't think here we will see a repeat of the kind of incidents that we see in the US," he says.

According to Abhijeet Singh, another member of the organisation, as per the law, any citizen of India who is not otherwise "dis-entitled" is eligible to an arms licence.

"However, in practice, it is next to impossible for an ordinary 'unconnected' person to acquire an arms licence. Licensing authorities routinely demand proof of income, property papers and other such in states such as Uttarakhand and Uttar Pradesh in order to deny applicants a gun," says Singh.

CAN YOU OWN ONE?

According to the Arms Act of 1959, to acquire an arms licence, one should be more than 21 years old, should not have a history of mental disorder and should not have been convicted of a violent crime.

"Usually the licensing authorities do not easily accept applications and even on acceptance of applications, they sit on them indefinitely. In other cases, licences are denied without stating a reason or by simply saying that the applicant has been unable to demonstrate any real need for a firearm," says Singh.
The applicant also has to convince the district magistrate concerned that he faces a threat to his life, which makes the process all the more complicated. Political psychologist Ashis Nandy, however, says that a rampant gun culture could have dangerous consequences for India.

"The argument for arming people is absolutely silly. Why don't we talk of disarming everyone instead of arming everybody? That way we will definitely have a peaceful society," says Nandy.

A society can be made better by improving the judicial system and policing. However, if people were to take to arms to protect themselves, there would be a flourishing gun culture and criminals will also have easy access to guns. "Look at what is happening in the US where they followed a liberal licensing system," says Nandy, referring to the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School. "This argument for selling weapons to people comes from vested interests."
Here is the online link:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 722500.cms

By: KP Narayana Kumar
Last edited by AgentDoubleS on Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Buy Her a Gun - Economic Times

Post by miroflex » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:12 am

Thanks for posting the link SS.

Regards.
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Re: Buy Her a Gun - Economic Times

Post by mundaire » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:10 am

Thanks for posting the article here SS, hope this makes people think and we have more women applying for licenses & arming themselves! :)

Cheers!
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Re: Buy Her a Gun - Economic Times

Post by essdee1972 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:40 am

Thanks! Finally an article where the pro-gun stand is given much more space than the anti! But I seriously wonder how people actually get away with flights of imagination like "Why don't we talk of disarming everyone instead of arming everybody?" ??
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Re: Buy Her a Gun - Economic Times

Post by nagarifle » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:59 am

"The argument for arming people is absolutely silly. Why don't we talk of disarming everyone instead of arming everybody? That way we will definitely have a peaceful society," says Nandy.
first its should be the armed forces as they have a violent records, no, no first should be the politicians, then the armed forces and the para forces and the police forces. since they do not protect the citizen but murder them. just like the criminals,

"One man with a gun can control 100 without one. ... Make mass searches and hold executions for found arms." --V.I. Lenin.
"If the opposition disarms, well and good. If it refuses to disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves." --Joseph Stalin

"Mr. Speaker, I still believe that the best way to control handguns is to ban them outright." -- Illinois Representative Cardiss Collins

eh stupid, how can you ban what is outside the law, ie gangster do not need to ask if they can have guns they have them regardless of what any one imposes.
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Re: Buy Her a Gun - Economic Times

Post by mundaire » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:13 pm

See - http://www.indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15910

At an average of 4.33 (or more) killings per day, Indian Cops kill 2.5 times more Indian citizens than legal civilian gun owners... some food for thought...

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Re: Buy Her a Gun - Economic Times

Post by inplainsight » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:26 pm

I don't think this (arming women/RKBA) can be achieved with changes to the licensing policy alone. Consider this, if every single application was granted, then who would supply the guns (lets not even discuss the issues with obtaining reliable ammunition). IOF? I mean there is a limit till when our supply of imported weapons will last, these are bound to become unreliable/obsolete/extinct in the wild eventually.

I dont see this happening till the EXIM policy is changed to encourage competition in the Indian market. Otherwise all we will achieve is to put expenseive pieces of scrap metal in the hands of our mothers/sisters/wives/daughters which might just put them more at risk. Am I willing bet the safety of my wife/mother on an IOF weapon?

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Re: Buy Her a Gun - Economic Times

Post by AgentDoubleS » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:20 pm

Kandarp, I agree that the 'tools' in the scheme are shoddy and poor quality. But I do see EXIM policy as the lesser of the constraints.

To me, it's the mindset of the majority of citizens that is disheartening. I posted a comment on the online article, put up "Buy her a Gun" as a my bbm status and you should read the comments I got. Some individuals comparing liberal gun laws to making prostitution legal! Someone asking "what if the assailant sues the victim"!! :roll:

People are so focused on the 'gun' that they completely forget about the right to protect their family and themselves. I would do it with my bare hands, with a stick, with a knife or with a gun.

But all I hear is cries about how "others" should be ensuring their families are kept safe. The "others" who lathi charged unarmed women over the last 2 days.

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Re: Buy Her a Gun - Economic Times

Post by goodboy_mentor » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:09 pm

Ministry of Home Affairs24-December, 2012 16:37 IST
Review of Existing Laws on Safety of Women
Justice verma Committee Invites Suggestions from Public

The recent incident of rape and brutal assault on a young woman in Delhi has shaken the conscience of the nation and has triggered a serious debate amongst jurists, civil society members and women’s groups about inadequacy of the present laws to protect the safety and dignity of women.

The Government has given anxious consideration to the need for reviewing the present laws so as to provide for speedier justice and enhanced punishment in cases of aggravated sexual assault. For that purpose, a Committee has been constituted by the Union Government on 23.12.2012 under the Chairmanship of Justice (Retd.) Shri J.S. Verma, former Chief Justice of India. The other two Members are – (i) Justice Smt. Leila Seth, former Chief Justice of Himachal Pradesh High Court (ii) Shri Gopal Subramanian, former Solicitor General of India, former Chairman of Bar Council of India and eminent Jurist.

The Committee has to submit its Report within 30 days. The public in general and particularly the eminent jurists, legal professionals, NGOs, Women’s Groups and civil Society members are requested to share with this Committee their views, knowledge and experience suggesting possible amendments in the criminal laws and other relevant laws to provide for quicker investigation, prosecution and trial as also enhanced punishment for criminals accused of committing sexual assault of extreme nature against women.

The suggestions can be sent by e-mail to [email protected] or through fax at 011-23092675.

The suggestions should be sent by January 05, 2013 so as to enable the committee to complete its task and give its report with necessary recommendations within the available time.

***


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(Release ID :91148)
Reference http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=91148

Ladies and gentlemen instead of only discussing the matters on this website, let us flood with suggestions to Justice Verma Committe. Since the mandate of the Committee is to review existing laws related to safety of women, Arms Act 1959 also comes in picture. We can make use of the following points:

1. Supreme Court has held judgment in Darshan Singh vs State Of Punjab & Anr. on 15 January, 2010(http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/1748156/) that citizens should not be expected to behave like cowards. In other words it is reasonable to expect that they are well armed to defend themselves to enforce the law of Private Defense as mentioned in Sections 96 to 106 IPC. Keeping law abiding citizens disarmed is against the very spirit of this Supreme Court judgment as well as law of Private Defense which flows from Article 21 of the Constitution. When any person enforces the law as mentioned from Sections 96 to 106 IPC, he is acting as nothing but as a law enforcement machinery in individual capacity.

2. Parliament is creation of the Constitution and legislates on behalf of the Constitution. Thus the statement of objects and reasons of any parliamentary Bill are the link between the Constitution and the law. Keeping citizens disarmed is against the very spirit of The Statement of Objects and Reasons of the Parliamentary Bill for enacting the Arms Act 1959(http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/1434833/). Since arms are fundamental right under Articles 19 and 21 of the Constitution, it reads as follows:

The objects of the original Arms Amendment Bill are:
(a) to exclude knives, spears, bows and arrows and the like from the definition of "arms".

(b) to classify firearms and other prohibited weapons so as to ensure--

(i) that dangerous weapons of military patterns are not available to civilians, particularly the anti-social elements;

(ii) that weapons for self-defence are available for all citizens under licence unless their antecedents or propensities do not entitle them for the privileges; and

(iii) the fire-arms required for training purposes and ordinary civilian use are made more easily available on permits:

(c) to co-ordinate the rights of the citizen with the necessity of maintaining law and order and avoiding fifth-column activities in the country:


(d) to recognize the right of the State to requisition the services of every citizen in national emergencies. The licensees and permit holders for firearms, shikaris, target shooters and riflle-men in general (in appropriate age groups) will be of great service to the country in emergencies, if the Government can properly mobiles and utilise them. [Gazette of India, 20-2-1959, Pt. II-S-2, Extra., P. 107].
3. Add as a many more convincing points related to RKBA you can think of and share it here so that everyone can copy and email the same.
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Re: Buy Her a Gun - Economic Times

Post by TC » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:15 pm

Nice article despite Mr Nandy's bookish comments... Thanks Abhijeet. You may soon get a call from one of my reporters on the same issue.

Cheers

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Re: Buy Her a Gun - Economic Times

Post by only32owner » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:42 pm

GBM,
indeed you are 'Good Boys' Mentor.
I'll definety do my bit, by suggesting in what measures are required and it wiil mainly focused on RKBA.

If I am not going OT here,

About the recent incident in Delhi that is rocking the entire nation.
In an intervieve with the news challels , one joint C. P. delhi praised the boy who was with the girl .
"He is a brave boy, well good for two boys, He fought very bravely , even in semiunconsious state he tried hard to defend the girl."

My tears goes to both of them , the girl and the boy. If they had a gun with them.....

I have never been it to a physical fight with anyone. But I carry my hand gun and will never think twice before firing it to defend the pride and honour of people who matters to me in life.

Regards.

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Re: Buy Her a Gun - Economic Times

Post by inplainsight » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:53 pm

only32owner wrote: I have never been it to a physical fight with anyone. But I carry my hand gun and will never think twice before firing it to defend the pride and honour of people who matters to me in life.
Hell yeah! I wouldn't think twice before shooting / stabbing / or maiming bastards like these. I'm just glad they were not sons of politicians or industrialists, or the victim would never get any justice!

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Re: Buy Her a Gun - Economic Times

Post by James_Bond » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:11 pm

Thanks for posting the article here SS and also the link
With Regards
CODE NAME BOND, JAMES BOND LICENSE TO RKBA

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Re: Buy Her a Gun - Economic Times

Post by only32owner » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:18 pm

kandarp wrote:
only32owner wrote: I have never been it to a physical fight with anyone. But I carry my hand gun and will never think twice before firing it to defend the pride and honour of people who matters to me in life.
Hell yeah! I wouldn't think twice before shooting / stabbing / or maiming bastards like these. I'm just glad they were not sons of politicians or industrialists, or the victim would never get any justice!
I am not getting your point here.

If I am not wrong, victims never get justice only culprits get punishments.
What kind of punishments to those Monsters can bring back normal life back to the girl and the boy?
I am talking about the difference it would have made if they had a gun ?
Mind you, criminals are criminals not depending on what their fathers are.

Do all sons of politicians or industrrialist go on raping and killing and all sons of poor slum deweller do that ?

In a nutshell, criminal are criminals they should see Barrel of our gun and feel the hot lead if requered.

Regards.
Last edited by only32owner on Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Buy Her a Gun - Economic Times

Post by inplainsight » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:21 pm

SS wrote: People are so focused on the 'gun' that they completely forget about the right to protect their family and themselves. I would do it with my bare hands, with a stick, with a knife or with a gun.
I totally agree with you there, in our society only 'gunndas' and 'netas' 'need' guns. Almost everyone that I've discussed this issue with feels that ordinary citizens do not need to arm themselves.

My response to them, "that's your assessment, if you trust your wife's life with it then good for you"

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