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NOTIFICATIONS

The legal aspects of owning, shooting, importing arms/ ammo and other related legal aspects as well as any other legal queries. Please note: This INCLUDES all arms licensing issues/ queries!
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nagarifle
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NOTIFICATIONS

Postby nagarifle » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:46 pm

For some time now it’s been on my mind that when we discuss anything legal related we often than not say things without proving what we are saying, something like this;

Renowned shooters can have up to five or more arms
Or
Member of NARI can have one more then what the arms act say

I feel that when we refer to such Act and rules we must quote the verse and chapters.

Also if possible give links and notification to be posted in the posts.

The reason is simple if as a member of NARI i am entitle to have a fourth arm ie .22 rifle and i make an application, the arms branch will throw it out of the windows while pointing out that arms act only say up to three arms can be had.

So what do i tell them ‘oh Rusty man say so and you have to give me the fourth arm’ :D that holds no water for them. :?

However if i showed the Arms Act and gave a Government notice to the effect then they have less chance to deny my application. :D

Also by giving References one is providing a better information to others who may not know what is what regarding arms act etc.

I would ask the mods to think about this issue and to make it a mandatory.

(this is my notification to you) :D
Please let your thoughts be viewed here.


Nagarifle

if you say it can not be done, then you are right, for you, it can not be done.

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Anand
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Re: NOTIFICATIONS

Postby Anand » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:32 pm

Hi nagarifle,
while I agree with you that providing a link or citing the relevant notification or law is very helpful to all others and to some extent will prevent needless "rumours", there may be members who may have good information but may not have the required proofs for it or may be unable to substantiate their statements. My way of looking at it is "the absence of proof is not proof of absence"! :D
Since this is a forum for the benefit & learning of the members some "discovery" may be good!
You will notice there are a lot of "mays" :D
Regards,
Anand



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nagarifle
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Re: NOTIFICATIONS

Postby nagarifle » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:03 pm

Anand
one reason i would like all to give chapter and verses with links if possible is that in my part of the world people are helpful only up to what they know.( or the knowledge they of the subject) so if one say this or that then one has to show them in black and white.

for instance this chap applied for NPB 3006 RIFLE and was refused unless he could prove that 3006 was a NPB :D and was asked for PB?NPB list :shock:

you and i know that their is no such offical list,

well perhaps now you can see why i think that we should give the chapter and verse etc. save lot of ' i thinks' or as you say 'maybe' statements. lets face it we are dealing in law/ACt/Rules issue and our 'i think' has no place.


Nagarifle

if you say it can not be done, then you are right, for you, it can not be done.

cottage cheese
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Re: NOTIFICATIONS

Postby cottage cheese » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:16 pm

Fully agree -

If this thread serves to clear the general ambiguities that surround arms laws and regulations in India, there could be nothing better. With GOI/MHA notifications and circulars being what they are - for internal usage, finding specific Notifications and amendments to the Act&Rules is by and large a daunting task for most laypersons.Why, it could help educate many ignorant government servants as well.

IFG and this thread in particular can render a good service to gun owners - layman and die hard alike.

It would also help to refrain from posting unnecessary comments on this thread, in interest of convenience and usability... it would be detrimental to have to wade through the usual clutter.

A post on a particular topic can perhaps be titled appropriately in Bold so that browsing and searching can be easier.

...and every few months or when several posts have accumulated, they could be republished in an organized manner in the Legal Eagle Section.

my few annas,

cc


He who can not think, is a fool; he who will not, a bigot; he who dare not - a slave!

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nagarifle
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Re: NOTIFICATIONS

Postby nagarifle » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:56 pm

cc
few annas makes a rupee :D


Nagarifle

if you say it can not be done, then you are right, for you, it can not be done.

goodboy_mentor
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Re: NOTIFICATIONS

Postby goodboy_mentor » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:13 am

Hi nagarifle,
Links for notifications, laws etc. are helpful, but isn't it sometimes we make things complicated for ourselves?
for instance this chap applied for NPB 3006 RIFLE and was refused unless he could prove that 3006 was a NPB :D and was asked for PB?NPB list :shock:

Instead of mentioning a particular bore "30-06" in license application, is it not simpler to mention NP bore rifle instead? This will keep the morons at licensing authority satisfied, as well as license holder will have wider options at time of purchase of firearm.



cottage cheese
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Re: NOTIFICATIONS

Postby cottage cheese » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:26 am

goodboy_mentor wrote:Hi nagarifle,
Links for notifications, laws etc. are helpful, but isn't it sometimes we make things complicated for ourselves?
for instance this chap applied for NPB 3006 RIFLE and was refused unless he could prove that 3006 was a NPB :D and was asked for PB?NPB list :shock:

Instead of mentioning a particular bore "30-06" in license application, is it not simpler to mention NP bore rifle instead? This will keep the morons at licensing authority satisfied, as well as license holder will have wider options at time of purchase of firearm.


Hi Goodboy,

The problem is the bloody sods this side insist on the actual bore you want a license for... just 'NPB' will more often than not, provoke a rejection.

Incredibly stupid.

Wouldn't that requirement be not in tune with the Arms Rules?

regards,
cc


He who can not think, is a fool; he who will not, a bigot; he who dare not - a slave!

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mundaire
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Re: NOTIFICATIONS

Postby mundaire » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:23 am

Arms categories are listed in Schedule I of the Arms Rules 1962 - http://www.abhijeetsingh.com/arms/india ... ule_I.html

Relevant licensing authorities etc. for all categories of arms are available in Schedule II of the Arms Rules 1962 - http://www.abhijeetsingh.com/arms/india ... le_II.html

As to PB calibres, they are listed under category 1(c) of Schedule I:

Blot action or semi-automatic rifles of .303" or 7.62 mm bore or any other bore which can chamber and fire service ammunition of .303" or 7.62 mm calibre; .410 musket ammunition; pistols, revolvers or carbines of any bore which can chamber .380" and .455" rimmed cartridges or service 9mm or .45" rimless cartridges.

ANY AND ALL calibres which DO NOT fall within the above classification are NPB.


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nagarifle
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Re: NOTIFICATIONS

Postby nagarifle » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:27 pm

goodboy_mentor wrote:Hi nagarifle,
Links for notifications, laws etc. are helpful, but isn't it sometimes we make things complicated for ourselves?
for instance this chap applied for NPB 3006 RIFLE and was refused unless he could prove that 3006 was a NPB :D and was asked for PB?NPB list :shock:

Instead of mentioning a particular bore "30-06" in license application, is it not simpler to mention NP bore rifle instead? This will keep the morons at licensing authority satisfied, as well as license holder will have wider options at time of purchase of firearm.


how can we make things complicated of ourselves if we have the right info at hand? would you not agree that lack of knowledge destroys ones hope of obtaining arms license?


like cc pointed out it does not work here. if the chap had no info and no way of proving that 3006 is a NPB he would not have got his license. In this case he came across the IOF website which had the 3006 as NPB. AND That was enough for the authority to grant him the license.

what complicates things is that on the application form it clearly states which cal. and not giving that can be rejected, this i know of an other chap who only put NPB pistol and application was dump with many others, on the ground there was no cal. given.

NPB does not say which cal. ie .22 .32 etc, which is asked in the application form. however in some parts of India it works and others it does not.

Thanks Abbji for the links of the good works.


Nagarifle

if you say it can not be done, then you are right, for you, it can not be done.

goodboy_mentor
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Re: NOTIFICATIONS

Postby goodboy_mentor » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:27 am

I understand, licensing authorities work as per their whims and fancies(and mostly as per directions of their political bosses), with little regard to the implementation of the law in its true form and matters complicated and unknowingly abetted by ignorant and unorganized license seekers.

I have read somewhere on internet, that it is unofficially said by the present state government of a large state in Northern India(name of state withheld :wink: since this happens in almost every state), that under the previous state government, firearm licenses were issued in "large" numbers by district magistrates(it is assumed the supporters of ruling party of that time were issued firearm licenses liberally) and the present government has become "strict" in issuing fresh firearm licenses(presumably they will be issued to the supporters of present ruling party liberally and "strictly" to others) and those district magistrates who had issued licenses in "large" numbers during previous government are been questioned.

So there is lot of work to be done, to make things reasonable.........................................



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nagarifle
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Re: NOTIFICATIONS

Postby nagarifle » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:01 am

in most cases the clerks who rule the roost. and in other cases they only go as far as their knowledge goes. :( one reason why people do not get license is that they turn away at the first rejection, not knowing the what rights they have under the ACT.


Nagarifle

if you say it can not be done, then you are right, for you, it can not be done.

goodboy_mentor
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Re: NOTIFICATIONS

Postby goodboy_mentor » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:04 am

Clerks can rule the roost, only as long their seniors implicitly give them a free hand to create problems, aimed to deny/discourage obtaining firearm licenses. It all trickles down from the top. Moreover Arms Act gives licensing authority a free hand to decide and implement Arms Act as per its perception about firearms/applicants. Practically it is the "decision" of licensing authority based on perception about firearms/applicants that matters.
As far as of "rights" under Arms Act are concerned, I think practically speaking, we hardly have any, since it gives liberty to the licensing authority to decide on its "reason to believe":
http://abhijeetsingh.com/arms/india/law ... r_3_4.html
CHAPTER III - PROVISIONS RELATING TO LICENCES
13. Grant of licences
:
(2) On receipt of an application, the licensing authority, after making such inquiry, if any, as it may consider necessary, shall, subject to the other provisions of this Chapter, by order in writing either grant the licence or refuse to grant the same.
:
14. Refusal of licences
(i) where such licence is required by a person whom the licensing authority has reason to believe---
(1) to be prohibited by this Act or by any other law for the time being in force from acquiring, having in his possession or carrying any arms or ammunition, or
(2) to be of unsound mind, or
(3) to be for any reason unfit for a licence under this Act; or
(ii) where the licensing authority deems it necessary for the security of the public peace or for public safety to refuse to grant such licence.

So the loose clauses/terms in Arms Act that keep the applicants at the mercy of licensing authority to get firearm license:
1)"Inquiry" - Recommendation of inquiry can be anything(time for completion of inquiry is another pain)
2)"Reason to believe" - Can be any reason, open to be interpreted as desired.
3)"Any reason" - means any reason based on perception of licensing authority
4)"Public peace"/"Public safety" - Another loose term/excuse open to be interpreted as desired.

I believe these loose terms "Inquiry", "Reason to believe", "Any reason", "Public peace"/"Public safety" need to go. A person can be a danger to "Public peace"/"Public safety" only when he is insane or is a proclaimed offender(means he is evading the due process of law).

I believe, just the awareness of this cleverly written loose law/notifications etc. aimed at denying gun ownership, is not going to help change the matters. Individuals just chasing their personal applications on the basis of these laws/notifications etc. aimed at denying gun ownership, is not going to help change the matters either.

What is needed is rewriting or just scrapping of this repainted version of Arms Act created by British, to rule/subjugate their colony. For this, systematic, combined and sustained effort is needed.



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nagarifle
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Re: NOTIFICATIONS

Postby nagarifle » Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:44 pm

in a nutshell, go to court, and let then decide what is reasonable. however if you have smiler case which already has a court judgment in favor of the person then same ruling will be most likely apply.

we live in country where we have to fight for our rights. :D


Nagarifle

if you say it can not be done, then you are right, for you, it can not be done.

goodboy_mentor
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Re: NOTIFICATIONS

Postby goodboy_mentor » Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:57 pm

Going to courts etc. individually is not easy or cheap for everybody, nor it is going to bring about any change in the law. It will keep things difficult for law abiding citizens from acquiring firearms.

I agree we live in a country where we have to fight for our rights. The fight has to be in a systematic, organized way, with lot of supporters in every section and level of society. One idea I can think of is, we can have a particular section in this website, were people facing difficulties in obtaining firearm license and willing to support the cause, can write their problems. After we get large number of people facing difficulty in obtaining license, a PIL is filed in any High Court, to ask government to reconsider the law, to make it very specific, leaving no room for individuals in Licensing Authority to implement Arms Act as per their personal ideas.



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nagarifle
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Re: NOTIFICATIONS

Postby nagarifle » Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:37 pm

until that happens lets paste every notification so others can benefit. :D


Nagarifle

if you say it can not be done, then you are right, for you, it can not be done.


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