Experts suggest ban on heavy calibre guns due to Maoists

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Post by gunaficionado » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:18 pm

shahid";p="30006 wrote:If anti naxal insurgency group is to be formed, i.e the Govt. is really serious then a crack team of commandos, with proper intelligence gathering, comm network, helicopter gunships, anti mine vehicles, minesweepers, sniper rifle trained personnel and local area informer network needs to be formed.

On a serious front, naxals can be wiped out within two years, but does the govt want this ? I don't think so.

THere is an old law, he who controls the land at night under darkness wins the war.

THese naxals operate on foot, take refuge in village huts, move from village to village in darkness and regroup at prearranged positions. When they conduct an attack say on the Jehanabad Jail in 2005, within 30 minutes of the operation they were on 3600 different tracks on a 360 degree circle from Jehanabad.

Newsteams reached 2 hours after the incedent and Police after 4 hours.

An attack helicopeter group would be there in 12 minutes, with night vision and heat seeking thermal imaging radars on the helicopter gunships scan the area in radial waves and shoot those carrying weapons and identified foe in the image. A 30 % strike rate of a 100 insurgents would discourage them to regroup for a long time.

Citizen volunteers armed for counter insurgency with local area knowledge need to be picked up by these attack gunships within minutes for local guidance. THe moment insurgents are spotted on Jungle tracks the helicopter gunsio 24 mm machine gun cuts the naxal in 2 halves.

But instead the govt debates, for which party can these naxal controlled votes be garnered ? How to turn them ?

Why is a party like CPMM - not CPM but this is radical CP marxist Lenniist allowed to contest elections when they are insurgents ? What about IPF, Indian peoples front, how is their election application passed ?
Shahid I fully agree with this... But unfortunately this type of operation in India we may have to just go to a movie theater and dream of this while watching any Hollywood movie.. But if an proper operation is done with just 25 percent of what you have explained we can surely say,"once upon a time there was some groups called naxals............. and they were....... etc etc"
But as you said with the mentality of our netas and babus, we can just hope to see such operations only in a sony play station... Forget all this, even if our paramilitary forces are given a free hand in these infected areas this menace can be put to stop. Of course the civilians will be having some tough times even, but for a better tomorrow something has to be compromised.

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Post by Vikram » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:57 pm

In AP where the Naxals have been active for ages, it is true that most of their guns are either 12 bores or .315/ 8mm rifles snatched from civilians or illegally made and ammunition does reach them through illegal sales. Then, there are also many .303s,AKs, SLRs taken from the security forces and they seem not to run out of ammo for these guns.To suggest that these guns need to be banned from civilians is ludicrous and ill considered as the logical continuation is to take the guns from the security forces too.

But, on our part, we need to take it to the notice of the people making these suggestions that it is not really in the interest of anyone and may have adverse results to what they are trying to achieve.

BTW, at least in the South, the AKs are not that common.Only the squad leaders and above would have them.And, certainly no RPGs or Brens are recorded so far.Bihar can be different because of the porous borders.

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Post by Vikram » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:28 pm

gunaficionado";p="30032 wrote:
shahid";p="30006 wrote:If anti naxal insurgency group is to be formed, i.e the Govt. is really serious then a crack team of commandos, with proper intelligence gathering, comm network, helicopter gunships, anti mine vehicles, minesweepers, sniper rifle trained personnel and local area informer network needs to be formed.

On a serious front, naxals can be wiped out within two years, but does the govt want this ? I don't think so.

THere is an old law, he who controls the land at night under darkness wins the war.

THese naxals operate on foot, take refuge in village huts, move from village to village in darkness and regroup at prearranged positions. When they conduct an attack say on the Jehanabad Jail in 2005, within 30 minutes of the operation they were on 3600 different tracks on a 360 degree circle from Jehanabad.

Newsteams reached 2 hours after the incedent and Police after 4 hours.

An attack helicopeter group would be there in 12 minutes, with night vision and heat seeking thermal imaging radars on the helicopter gunships scan the area in radial waves and shoot those carrying weapons and identified foe in the image. A 30 % strike rate of a 100 insurgents would discourage them to regroup for a long time.

Citizen volunteers armed for counter insurgency with local area knowledge need to be picked up by these attack gunships within minutes for local guidance. THe moment insurgents are spotted on Jungle tracks the helicopter gunsio 24 mm machine gun cuts the naxal in 2 halves.

But instead the govt debates, for which party can these naxal controlled votes be garnered ? How to turn them ?

Why is a party like CPMM - not CPM but this is radical CP marxist Lenniist allowed to contest elections when they are insurgents ? What about IPF, Indian peoples front, how is their election application passed ?
Shahid I fully agree with this... But unfortunately this type of operation in India we may have to just go to a movie theater and dream of this while watching any Hollywood movie.. But if an proper operation is done with just 25 percent of what you have explained we can surely say,"once upon a time there was some groups called naxals............. and they were....... etc etc"
But as you said with the mentality of our netas and babus, we can just hope to see such operations only in a sony play station... Forget all this, even if our paramilitary forces are given a free hand in these infected areas this menace can be put to stop. Of course the civilians will be having some tough times even, but for a better tomorrow something has to be compromised.
Gents,
the AP government has been trying most of these.Not gunships but helicopters,special forces like the Grey Hounds etc and they have been successful in containing them to a great extent. But, did anyone give attention to why there are people still joining these movements which are still flourishing? Does anyone give a thought to the socio-economical forces behind the movement? I absolutely do not condone violence by the naxals nor am I a naxal sympathiser.But the hunger and poverty they claim to fight are very real and offer the best recruiting grounds. For starters,how about proper land reforms and re-distribution, end to caste discrimination,no corruption etc? Any takers?

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Vikram
Last edited by Vikram on Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Experts suggest ban on heavy calibre guns due to Maoists

Post by cottage cheese » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:42 pm

Bah!...

Usual stupidity doing its rounds.... you know... the wonders of Indian Governance!

I'd rather not comment on the banning idea... just gives me a hernia.

While it would be pretty naive to think military action alone will be the solution to the maoist problem (That would mean culling a lot of rural folk)...if one must apply the same, well...its pretty plain butter and bread tactics and strategy... which I'm afraid, is a quality that continues to elude most of our governmental establishment.

At the risk of sounding very much like an arm chair general, heres my two annas:

The maoists primarily use two classic tactics from the regular guerrilla handbook(Mao-che etc...)

1. IEDs
2. Massed Raids

The first is pretty obvious and simplest in terms of investment of time, money, manpower. No solution for its total removal. The only partially effective solution from a police perspective is breaking of habit and predictable movement patterns. Most successful IED ambushes are so because of carelessness and laziness of the policemen. It's as simple as that. For instance most times they don't want to take the trouble of taking the longer and roundabout but relatively safer route. Repeat same route regularly and then boom!

The second is the classic commie guerrilla tactic. It was used effectively in the early Naga insurgency days as well. The tactic is simple - Outnumber your foe.

Its superbly effective against our undergunned under motivated under trained police constables. When you outnumber your enemy overwhelmingly, it doesn't get too important whether you are armed with flintlocks, DBBLs, 303s or AK-47s or Uzis. It's the psychological factor that is paramount. If you are manning a platoon size outpost even with gizmos like Steyr AUGs and G36's, it's quite certain you'd be discharging copious amounts or urine and gas at the sight of hundreds of murderous maniacs closing in on you. The din created by the screams, gunfire and crude home made bombs won't help one little bit. The guerrilla knows this and is conditioned and led to exploit this. There is nothing suicidal or brave in this tactic... its just fighting smart and knowing how and when to hurt your enemy.

Now look at our poor police man. Poorly trained, very poorly paid, poorly motivated, most times poorly armed. Most have passed half their miserable careers in inane pointless deployment... Most have degenerated to part time mafia or just small time ruffians. Good leaders and officers come and go like comets. There is no permanence in doing anything good or useful. Our style of governance and policing is built upon adhocism... almost always, an effective measure is a knee jerk reaction to a circumstance. Then it simply fizzles out. Our lively political system ensures the impermanence of any policy.

Look at the arms... all the bakwaas about modernization. Marvellous talk of SLRs replacing 303s... the 303's soldier on. Stens remain, Webley .455s keep being issued... hell even 410 muskets make their grand appearances once in a while. Look at the paltry ammunition load of a deployed police man. As SLR comes with 3 magazines from the factory and thats about the maximum a police man can hope to carry. Most times its 15 shots to a magazine. The LMGs - the very tool meant to provide the volumes of fire in such circumstances is sparingly used like a heavy automatic rifle. Most times, as I'm aware its 5 magazines for an LMG when they come with 24 from the factory!!

AK's? - 3 magazines maximum.... occasionally grenades...once in a blue-moon, mortars - Do they ever dry-range-in mortars and GF rifles on likely approaches when they first set up perimeter on a new position? I guess they don't know what that means. Do they set up obstacles like punji stakes (Now thats not expensive) and barb wire along the perimeter? My point with the arms is that one of the effective counter -measures against Massed human-wave attacks is massive volumes of gunfire. Confidence in not running out of ammo and thus letting rip at relatively easy targets is likely to improve performance. There should also be reliable and efficient logistics in support of every outpost... airborne if possible. When the governments can spend fortunes almost daily coptering their politicians all over the place... they can certainly spare some money the get copters to supply the poor souls taking bullets trying to make safe their constituencies.

Of course its not as simple as that. There are a lot of dynamics and details involved. I've only touched the surface. All the standard bubblefart talk of special crack commando teams is standard establishment BS and will not work. It won't anywhere in the world. Our country is blessed, or should I say cursed with more than enough special units, CPO's and task forces and I certainly don't think another bunch of bravado drunk, black-clad, bandana-swathed AK wielding thugs will make any difference.

Of course, amidst all this silly gung-ho talk, we are forgetting the most important aspect - What's causing the fire? Certainly the Maoists are not Maoists just for an afternoon of fun and games. Governments and politicians certainly have this serious inability to grasp this vital factor.

A Vikram rightly said - Deal with the cause.
Last edited by cottage cheese on Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:49 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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Post by cottage cheese » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:16 pm

Vikram";p="30040 wrote:To suggest that these guns need to be banned from civilians is ludicrous and ill considered as the logical continuation is to take the guns from the security forces too.
It speaks volumes about the quality of people who claim to be experts... the awfully limited depth of their thinking. Hopelessly infantile and naive.

It took these geniuses all the forensic balderdash how many years(!?) figure out what was already more than plain enough...!? :x
"Special calibre firearms like Thomson submachine guns and Mauser pistols were also seized from the Maoists. This indicates that the Naxals have access to foreign sources from where they are procuring these firearms," Dr Vedanand said."
What a bunch of jackasses - Thompsons being supplied by foreign countries? Quite apparently, it never occurred to these specialists that the government of India has the largest inventory of Thompsons in storage in the region. Very foreign indeed. Why, they are still in use in many state police forces.... unless by 'foreign' they mean the neighboring states... or maybe blame the evil US of A... after all thats where the Tompsons came from in the first place... wow! now the US is backing commies. The damn einsteins should be dismissed for burdening the taxpayer with their pointless amateurish service.

More than enough legal Mausers around. Don't know of any Mauser user or manufacturer in the region other than China... but then it's pointless supplying mauser reproductions when an AK or Tokarev or Makarov clone is cheaper and easier to hand out...

Thats talking about Mauser Pistols.

As regards Mauser rifles, there are significant numbers owned legally as well. Most probably were brought in by enthusiasts during the Raj and of course as war trophies as well. I'm not sure which, but some of the larger princely states which had 'armies' also fielded Mausers and assorted European hardware alongside predominantly British stuff. I could hazard a guess the The Nizam Of Hyderabad's military may have held significant stocks of Mausers...:)
Last edited by cottage cheese on Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Experts suggest ban on heavy calibre guns due to Maoists

Post by hamiclar01 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:34 am

[quote="Sanjay";p="30029"]

It was 10 Para Cdo,now called 10 Para SF,they knew what they were going into,the odds were stacked

[quote="shahid";p="29996"]

Firstly, no disrespect for our forces who are amongst the bravest in the world.

I did not want to go deeper into this sensitive episode, hence just touched on it. yet, i still maintain the 13 sikh LI were involved in the episode, as the second wave, and ran into serious trouble. the fact that they were ill equipped for such a raid, unlike the 10th para commando, made matters worse. they fought gallantly till the end, but were almost wiped out.
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Post by eljefe » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:13 pm

All,
Interesting blend of opinions-But the most important HAS been mentioned There's no smoke with out the fire...
Keep at guys and we're sure to see some intresting stuff coming out here.
I have been ivited to this Forensic conference in Delhi, but its clashing with another very important meeting elsewhere, lets see what i can mamage
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Post by shahid » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:42 pm

COuld be a sten gun, usually Police shadow and followers we have use 9 mm ammo, so it must be a sten gun.

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Post by cottage cheese » Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:15 pm

shahid";p="30080 wrote:COuld be a sten gun, usually Police shadow and followers we have use 9 mm ammo, so it must be a sten gun.
baapre! Shahid bhai...After getting this far with firearms, I'd at least expected you to know the difference between a Sten and a Bren! :mrgreen:

Obviously a Sten since you don't see PSO's lugging Brens!

shahid

Post by shahid » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:31 pm

I guess it is a sten gun, my interest is always sporting weapons, never infantory weapons, and that too obsolete ones.

shahid

Post by shahid » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:40 pm

Part of the naxal problem is giving them a free working environment - harmless landowners of India who do not have firearms because of dcaconian Indian arms act laws.

Poor fellows, one of the guys who got killed by Naxals, came to some Indian shooters to beg for a few 12 ga cartridges. He was given 5 pieces of No. 1 KF Special, to fight against Naxal infantry, and so to be, giving away cartridges is illegal in India. Bloody.
About two month after this borrowing incedent, this gentlemen was kidnapped by naxals, tied and his head was chopped off.

The administration played the fiddle meanwhile and is still playing.

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Post by dsingh » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:58 pm

Eariler there used to be few crminal gangs now many cotroversial leaders have raised a kind of private armies. To counter it arm license policy has to be liberlised. Naxals biggest advantage is their manpower in order to counter them state should provide arms in affected areas to volenteers but these volenteers have also tobe put under watch but this is only solution.

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Post by gunaficionado » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:08 pm

As we discuss this topic the fresh incident is that 16 policemen were shot dead in chhattisgarh in a village called cherla, bijapur district when they were walking to the police station to collect salaries. The whole village is so dangerous for anyone, even to walk because the full surrounding is heavily mined by naxals.

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Post by cottage cheese » Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:33 am

gunaficionado";p="30182 wrote:As we discuss this topic the fresh incident is that 16 policemen were shot dead in chhattisgarh in a village called cherla, bijapur district when they were walking to the police station to collect salaries. The whole village is so dangerous for anyone, even to walk because the full surrounding is heavily mined by naxals.
....hmmm the administration seem so helpless.

Where is all the mine clearing hardware that the Defense Industry and OFB claims to have invented? Perhaps it never occurred to them that mines can be cleared. This could give the Army's idle engineering units some preoccupation.

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Post by shutzen » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:17 am

[quote="cottage cheese";p="30802 Where is all the mine clearing hardware that the Defense Industry and OFB claims to have invented? Perhaps it never occurred to them that mines can be cleared. This could give the Army's idle engineering units some preoccupation.[/quote]

HI! Well recently when there was a well cave in situation in punjab the DC requested the local army commander to help but the dude flatly refused and told them to get clearance from Army HQ in Delhi. In his interview the commander fobbed it off by saying it is a civilian local administration problem and they should deal with it!

Another incident which comes to my mind is when the Army engnrs were laying a bailey bridge in HP last year and due to not following proper procedure the bridge was swept away taking with it sevral officers and ranks all of whom were killed.

Rest assured if the army demines the area there will be plenty of ka-booms later on because in war scenario the engineers do the job properly as they themselves are operating in the "zone" but de-mining for civvies can always be passed off as the naxals relaid the mines in the demined area so...

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