Indians For Guns

Those in or around Delhi can certainly co-ordinate among themselves, form a large group and meet the leaders of the concerned political parties, M.P.s, Home Minister etc. to oppose these rules. Those who are in different parts of India can certainly phone and email the leaders of the concerned political parties, M.P.s and lodge their protest and request them to oppose this in Parliament. Especially the opposition M.P.s would like this to corner the government on this.

My observations on classification of weapons in Arms rules 2016

.45 ACP is no longer a Prohibited bore as per the Arms rules 2016
Any Pistols (except 9mm Parabellum, 9x19mm/9mm Luger/9mm Parabellum Plus) is a Permissible arm so 45 is legal now

Any Revolvers Except (.38 Revolver MkIIz also .38/200x20R, .380/200 Revolver Mk-II, .455 WebleyR) is a Permissible arm

Any Non semi-automatic Centerfire Rifle, except (7.62mm NATO/ 7.62x51mm NATO, 5.56mm NATO/ 5.56x45mm NATO 7.62mmx39mm .303 British or 7.7x56mmR) is a Permissible arm. (Centerfire semi-automatic are very clearly mentioned as restricted arm, so all those M1 Grand owners are in trouble)

Any Shotgun (including semi-automatic) of calibre up to 12 bore/gauge, include the lesser calibres of 16, 20, 28 and 410 bore etc. is a Permissible arm

.22 bore Rimfire rifles (including semi-automatic) is a Permissible arm

Regards
Fateh

Hello Team,
new to this forum and have gone briefly through the notification.
This development looks like government's way of supporting legal and controlled use of arms.
Few sections promote rightful use e.g. for sports category or for crop protection/ wildlife safety while others
try to curb unwatchful use like bringing .22 air guns under purview of licensing.

With some interesting provisions - leaning-in support for grant of license to people in government and grant of firearm licenses
to kin of main license bearer? It seems to be draft of the government, by government and for the government.

Still few sections provide better clarity on subjects on license grants/ approvals/ arm categories etc. which makes it a mixed bag.
These pseudo liberal steps would only pay-off if red-tape around grant of firearm license to common man be eased and weapons are
seen as enablers and conductive to society.

Regards
Royal Singh

oh should I get a arm's licence before I purchase a .22 airgun?

Permissible category f (i), says Air weapons including air rifles and air guns

(i) having muzzle energy exceeding 20 joules or 15 ft. lbs. and/or bore exceeding 0.177”or 4.5 mm

which can be read as Air weapons including air rifles and air guns having muzzle energy exceeding 15fpe and bore exceeding .177/4.5mm

or it can be read as Air weapons including air rifles and air guns having muzzle energy exceeding 15fpe or bore exceeding .177/4.5mm

In section (f) sub-section (i) excludes .177 caliber air rifles/guns from the 15fpe limit .What ever the power is the bore should exceed .177cal and 15fpe to come under license. For the time being all .177cal are safe to hold.


Also the trminology "bore exceeding" means all other non-probihited bores greater than .177cal say .22, .25 comes under the license only if it exceeds legal limit of 15fpe. If it is below 15fpe license is not required for the use and carry of the same.

sub-section of (f) (II) will put all the co2 operated bb guns ie 4.35mm and power less than 15fpe to the license. 4.5mm co2 guns remains safe since its bore is greater than 4.35mm bb ,It says

(ii) having muzzle energy less than 20 joules or 15 ft. lbs. and /or bore less than 0.177”or 4.5

correct me if my interpretation of the law is wrong.

Regards
Renjith

ONLY 0.177 "/ 4.5 mm caliber air guns producing ME less than 15 ft-lbs are exempted from arms license. ALL other air/gas weapons require an arms license.

GNV

Also being only "gun lovers" is not enough. Creating awareness about importance of RKBA and mass support for it is very important.

GBM - I could not agree more with you. However, I have friends who shudder at the thought of some one with a gun. How does one expect a support of RKBA with such thinking Dont know if NAGRI is planning on taking up the cause citing practical difficulties of implementing this (licensing .22 AR's) along with the fact that it would kill the air gun industry. Don't know if the government cares though. Guess we will just have to wait and see.

SMJ wrote:

Also being only "gun lovers" is not enough. Creating awareness about importance of RKBA and mass support for it is very important.

GBM - I could not agree more with you. However, I have friends who shudder at the thought of some one with a gun. How does one expect a support of RKBA with such thinking Dont know if NAGRI is planning on taking up the cause citing practical difficulties of implementing this (licensing .22 AR's) along with the fact that it would kill the air gun industry. Don't know if the government cares though. Guess we will just have to wait and see.

Well the problem is we are a hypocrite bunch. Most of the people I talk to regarding rkba publicly take a moral high ground when i comes to gun ownership, but given a chance they'll be first in line to get a license for a gun once it becomes a bit easier to get a license, how do i know that, well lets just say a bottle of Jameson goes a long way. NAGRI need to figure out a way to get these people out of the closet.

goodboy_mentor wrote:TC probably you are joking when you are calling these points as "salient points". When I try to see these with "legal eye" and compare with Arms Rules 1962, these are nothing but more restrictions that have been clearly spelled out. Yes please keep posting and highlighting these restrictions. Also if you or anyone could also highlight contradictions with the provisions of Arms Act 1959. Arms Act 1959 is the main legislation. Arms Rules is sub ordinate to Arms Act 1959. They are administrative law to administer Arms Act 1959. Thus they cannot be in conflict or be more restrictive than the restrictions in Arms Act 1959.

I very much agree with GBM. Govt's across the globe have a new disease of Conical neck. All rules and laws are getting tightened.

US is tightening guns laws too. Especially Obama govt from the last 2 years, getting a gun license/purchase need additional checks and certain types (mostly military and assault) are almost not available to buy.

Edit-

spin_drift wrote:Well the problem is we are a hypocrite bunch. Most of the people I talk to regarding rkba publicly take a moral high ground when i comes to gun ownership, but given a chance they'll be first in line to get a license for a gun once it becomes a bit easier to get a license, how do i know that, well lets just say a bottle of Jameson goes a long way. NAGRI need to figure out a way to get these people out of the closet.

Yes it is not the basic right they are after, they are after a "license". They are ignorant about difference between right and license.

Forget airguns, has anyone paid attention to the fact than any license issued or denied, will be done via a speaking order? Sounds inane right? Well, it isn't! Let me explain why:

NAGRI had been pushing/ lobbying FOR YEARS that ANY DENIAL of a license should be via a speaking order, as that would mean that the licensing authority would have to give reasons in writing (publicly) as to why a license is being denied. This would have ensured that arbitrary denials of licenses would not happen or least would not happen as often.

However, by making ISSUANCE OR DENIAL via speaking order compulsory, the babus have ensured that NO LICENSES would EVER be issued as no licensing authority is going to stick it's neck out and issue a speaking order, citing reasons etc, for issuing an arms license. So no licenses would be issued!

I firmly believe that the airgun and other issues are merely a smokescreen to conceal the real kicker here, which is that the government is moving towards a situation where no fresh licenses would be issued. Next step would be cancelling the current licenses, eventually going to a situation where all firearms in India would only be owned by either the government OR BY CRIMINALS/ TERRORISTS.

Thats Bad news.. James.

25. Grant of licences to legal heirs.
─
(1) The licensing authority may grant a licence

So now licensing auth0rity may grant legal heirs. Bad


For all India License. Acquisition/ possession/ carrying and use for protection/ sport/target practice/ display in schedule II, clause III [except (f)(ii), and (g) (ii)], V, VI licensing authority is state gov and renewal authority is district magistrate. (for NPB) Good

Most of the rules are not at all practical. In the given law enforcement scenario in this country, these rules gives authorities stick to wield as per their whims.

Rgds
Biren

mundaire wrote:Forget airguns, has anyone paid attention to the fact than any license issued or denied, will be done via a speaking order? Sounds inane right? Well, it isn't! Let me explain why:

NAGRI had been pushing/ lobbying FOR YEARS that ANY DENIAL of a license should be via a speaking order, as that would mean that the licensing authority would have to give reasons in writing (publicly) as to why a license is being denied. This would have ensured that arbitrary denials of licenses would not happen or least would not happen as often.

However, by making ISSUANCE OR DENIAL via speaking order compulsory, the babus have ensured that NO LICENSES would EVER be issued as no licensing authority is going to stick it's neck out and issue a speaking order, citing reasons etc, for issuing an arms license. So no licenses would be issued!

Until NAGRI does not understand the fine nuances of law, the tricks being played, and to whom MHA is answerable, till then nothing meaningful is going to happen.

MHA is not practically answerable to the citizens. It will listen to the following only -

1. The Home Minister or Prime Minister
2. The mandate of Parliament
3. The direction of High Courts or Supreme Court.

If NAGRI reads and tries to understand the Section 14(3) of Arms Act 1959, it is already talking about speaking order. How? It is clearly mentioning that "reasons" have to be noted down. Writing and giving reasons publicly is already compulsory. It is because of principles of natural justice. Reasons do not mean any or every imaginable reasons. Reasons mean justified reasons within the four walls of Arms Act 1959.

Then question arises why the licensing authorities are not following the law and arbitrarily denying licenses? It needs to be understood that unless there are consequences for not obeying the law, the law is not going to be followed by the licensing authorities. This is exactly what is happening. One paper there are consequences in form of Section 166 of Indian Penal Code, but they have never been implemented. For details one may read this link viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24041&p=242172#p242172

Then what is the solution? Either the Parliament makes necessary changes in Arms Act 1959 to clearly lay down the punishment for licensing authorities(either by laying down punishment within the Act or make reference to Section 166 of Indian Penal Code) or Courts clarify this position and give directions.

mundaire wrote:I firmly believe that the airgun and other issues are merely a smokescreen to conceal the real kicker here, which is that the government is moving towards a situation where no fresh licenses would be issued. Next step would be cancelling the current licenses, eventually going to a situation where all firearms in India would only be owned by either the government OR BY CRIMINALS/ TERRORISTS

It is not merely a question of belief but it is a fact. Unless the fact that RKBA is an inalienable foundational fundamental human right acknowledged by Articles 19(1)(b), 21, 25 etc. etc. is raised in the media, in the Parliament and in the Courts, nothing is going to happen. I had earlier explained how RKBA is a right under Part III of the Constitution in post via this link https://www.indiansforguns.com/viewtopi ... 30#p230480 NAGRI needs to understand the basic difference between right and license. License is just a permission. It can be denied or revoked. Right cannot be denied or revoked.

Biren wrote:For all India License. Acquisition/ possession/ carrying and use for protection/ sport/target practice/ display in schedule II, clause III [except (f)(ii), and (g) (ii)], V, VI licensing authority is state gov and renewal authority is district magistrate. (for NPB) Good

Practically there is nothing good about these Rules. These were the same licensing authorities for all India licenses in previous Rules. Over all these entire Rules are even more restrictive and unreasonable than the previous Rules.

As GBM Mentions "MHA is not practically answerable to the citizens. It will listen to the following only -

The direction of High Courts or Supreme Court."

It is high time for wait and watch program. I think its important to take a call as individual or group (NAGRI) to file a petition in the Supreme Court. And a PIL would be more appropriate.

And in the matter of financial assistant, most of the members are happy to do their bit. This has already been discussed in the previous post Info regarding Arms Rules 2015 - Message from NAGRI. Only that we have not taken our first step of action to counter measure.