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Armed citizen successfully defends himself

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mundaire
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Armed citizen successfully defends himself

Postby mundaire » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:53 pm

Not sure if this has been shared here before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFGU-awOTeM

It's an interesting video, with many lessons to be learned. Do post what you learn from this video about how to "carry" and defend yourself effectively.

:)

Cheers!
Abhijeet


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Re: Armed citizen successfully defends himself

Postby aadhaulya » Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:29 pm

Abhileet,

This is interesting. But we live in India and only firing a warning shot in the worst situation would help. Because if you even hurt the other person then be prepared to loose your weapon for at least 3 months, time that it will take for the forensic report and then a long battle in court.
Besides, if he was a local person then be prepared for demonstrations by the villagers in front of your house.
I am seriously thinking of selling off my guns and surrender my license. It is better to carry a blank firing gun instead.

Atul



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mundaire
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Re: Armed citizen successfully defends himself

Postby mundaire » Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:44 pm

A blank firing gun will get you killed! See the relevant discussion in this section, for how/ why.

When under threat of violence, you are perfectly within your rights to respond with lethal force. There is a January 2010 Supreme Court ruling on this subject.

My key take ways from the above were:
1. Mock surrender
2. Gun in easy reach and victim can/ knows how to access it without needing to look
3. Gun kept in ready to fire condition
4. Criminals are essentially cowards
5. Don't let your guard down, even after it seems that the threat has passed.

http://www.abhijeetsingh.com/2015/09/04 ... s-himself/


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Re: Armed citizen successfully defends himself

Postby ankur_ank007 » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:08 pm

aadhaulya wrote:Abhileet,

This is interesting. But we live in India and only firing a warning shot in the worst situation would help. Because if you even hurt the other person then be prepared to loose your weapon for at least 3 months, time that it will take for the forensic report and then a long battle in court.
Besides, if he was a local person then be prepared for demonstrations by the villagers in front of your house.
I am seriously thinking of selling off my guns and surrender my license. It is better to carry a blank firing gun instead.

Atul


Hi Atul ji,

About wounding or killing someone, it is absolutely justifiable to use lethal force in tensed combat situations as held by the SCI. The use of lethal force should be justifiable. You can see the judgement here: http://judis.nic.in/supremecourt/imgst. ... name=35919

Also, is the white car parked in the far right corner of the frame is an Indian make? It is highly improbable by the looks of the victim and the situation that the video id from India, but that car caught my attention.

Regards


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Re: Armed citizen successfully defends himself

Postby varma » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:13 pm

Is carrying a Folding knife for self defense permissible legally in india.



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Re: Armed citizen successfully defends himself

Postby aadhaulya » Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:34 pm

ankur_ank007 wrote:Hi Atul ji,

About wounding or killing someone, it is absolutely justifiable to use lethal force in tensed combat situations as held by the SCI. The use of lethal force should be justifiable. You can see the judgement here: http://judis.nic.in/supremecourt/imgst. ... name=35919

Also, is the white car parked in the far right corner of the frame is an Indian make? It is highly improbable by the looks of the victim and the situation that the video id from India, but that car caught my attention.

Regards


Ankur,

I do not dispute the fact that shooting someone in self protection is allowed. But why I talk about India is that if you notice in the case mentioned it took the fellows 18 years and right up to the supreme court to get acquitted.
They were land owners and could have survived through the drama, but for a common working man it would be very tough.
Although, I always carry a gun and am prepared to use it, but I am at an age now where I can tke a few days off to go to jail, till I get bail, without affecting my carrier.
But then I have escaped a few attempts of road rage (very common in Delhi) just because I was openly carrying my gun. The other person just cooled down and walked away on seeing a revolver hanging on my belt.

Atul



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Re: Armed citizen successfully defends himself

Postby kshitij » Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:54 pm

Just one question, did this happen right in front of a camera in the middle of the road?


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Re: Armed citizen successfully defends himself

Postby aadhaulya » Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:45 pm

Kshitij,

This is what make me think that it was not in India. Here we can't keep the crowded areas under surveillance forget about in the middle of the road. Besides the car is also a Left Hand drive.
Even if it was India and every thing was recorded on camera he would still have had to run around in courts for a year or two to prove his innocence.

Atul



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Re: Armed citizen successfully defends himself

Postby Oggie » Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:25 am

This video has been doing the rounds on Live Leak. Its probably not India as the steering wheel seems to be in the left side of the car. I suspect its a south American country. The use of lethal force here seems justified as the driver was threatened with a firearm and was in a compromised position. I'm just not sure if he reacted in overkill mode. The first couple of shots had the 1st perpetrator flee. The driver then proceeded to pump a few more into the guy who was already down on the ground. However what may not be apparent is that the guy who's down may have had or was pointing a firearm and therefore needed to be neutralized. There's a lot that's open to translation in this video however at first take the use of lethal force does appear to be justified.



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Re: Armed citizen successfully defends himself

Postby mundaire » Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:16 pm

AFAIK this happened in Brazil. The Driver seems to be at some kind of barrier (toll/ entry to parking lot?), which explains the camera.

Cheers!
Abhijeet


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Re: Armed citizen successfully defends himself

Postby Walibaa » Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:18 pm

What is the procedure in India when use your licensed weapon for self defence? can anyone shed light on it



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Re: Armed citizen successfully defends himself

Postby aadhaulya » Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:45 pm

Walibaa wrote:What is the procedure in India when use your licensed weapon for self defence? can anyone shed light on it


Walibaa,

You must have gone through the post of Abhijeet, you do the following
1. Pretend to surrender if the gun is pointed at you.
2. Wait for the moment he is off guard and pull out your loaded gun.
3. Go bang, bang, bang & bang.
4. Repeat the point no 3 as long as you wish.

For any clarifications please feel free to respond. ROTFL ROTFL ROTFL

Atul



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Re: Armed citizen successfully defends himself

Postby ankur_ank007 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:57 pm

aadhaulya wrote:Kshitij,

This is what make me think that it was not in India. Here we can't keep the crowded areas under surveillance forget about in the middle of the road. Besides the car is also a Left Hand drive.
Even if it was India and every thing was recorded on camera he would still have had to run around in courts for a year or two to prove his innocence.

Atul


Ohhh... I didn't noticed the Steering Wheel's side....

Now, I am also sure its not India. But the fact is, we are fighting in India for the "Rights" which in many other countries are already being guaranteed by the Courts and relevant law enforcement agencies....

Regards

Added in 1 hour 4 minutes 34 seconds:
Walibaa wrote:What is the procedure in India when use your licensed weapon for self defence? can anyone shed light on it


Hi Walibaa,

There is no certain set of procedures on how to you use your licensed weapon in a tensed environment of combat for self defence. However in case of such sudden and unforeseen situations remember to:

1. Keep calm.
2. Never Panic
3. Observe the surrounding and look for suitable places to take cover or easy exit points if there is a combat situation.
4. Mock Surrender as noticed by Abhijeet ji (as you can see in the video footage) and it's advisable too, as keeps the assailants calm.
5. Take the assailants by surprise.
6. Don't let your guard down, even after it seems that the threat has passed.

Apart from this you always need to be prepared for unforeseen circumstances. For that:
1. Gun in easy reach and can be accessed without needing to look.
2. Gun kept in ready to fire condition, safety on and concealed from the eyes of people around.

Always remember, when you have shot a person in self defence, the burden of proof shifts from the prosecution to the defence. You will have to prove that there was a reasonable threat to your life which will justify your action.

1. Never use excessive force. (Like shooting a fleeing criminal from the back side)
2. Shooting an considerably unarmed (armed with a club, knife etc.) to kill, when simply a few non-lethal wounds would have done the job.
3. If they are armed with deadly weapons such as firearms, shoot to kill. Simply practise to shoot twice on the same place (near to the heart or anywhere in the flank) and place a third shot on the skull. These 3 shots are to be placed within a couple of seconds. This is my personal advice because in India, firearm for self defense available to a common man is normally of a very low calibre like .32 ACP. If the distance is more than 20 feet, or the assailants are wearing heavy clothing, they will only be wounded, may be non-lethally and they may shoot back. And you are not Dirty Harry carrying a 44 magnum, so he can MAKE YOUR DAY.... so before he does it... MAKE HIS DAY.

Regards,
Ankur


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Re: Armed citizen successfully defends himself

Postby aadhaulya » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:59 pm

Ankur,

It is not about rights, we in India also have full rights for self defense. The process of proving guilt or innocence of a person will have to remain and is probably similar in other countries as well.
The problem in India is over population and not enough courts to handle so many cases. For any crime or case the police has to submit a report to the court with forensic evidence (3 months about). Then the court has to frame charges and admit the case (may even take a year to do that depending on the magistrate when he is in the mood or has time to listen to arguments to admit the case. Then starts the process of calling witnesses (no time limit as the witness may not be well or out on important work).
After that the magistrate will give his verdict. If it is not in your favour you will have to go to higher court and as you yourself gave an example of self defense that took 18 years to decide.
Meanwhile there are many forms that need information if you have ever been arrested in a criminal case. You will have to answer 'Yes' as you are still on bail.
In other developed countries these things are handled quickly so it does not drag on for years.

Atul



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Re: Armed citizen successfully defends himself

Postby ankur_ank007 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:19 pm

aadhaulya wrote:Ankur,

It is not about rights, we in India also have full rights for self defense. The process of proving guilt or innocence of a person will have to remain and is probably similar in other countries as well.
The problem in India is over population and not enough courts to handle so many cases. For any crime or case the police has to submit a report to the court with forensic evidence (3 months about). Then the court has to frame charges and admit the case (may even take a year to do that depending on the magistrate when he is in the mood or has time to listen to arguments to admit the case. Then starts the process of calling witnesses (no time limit as the witness may not be well or out on important work).
After that the magistrate will give his verdict. If it is not in your favour you will have to go to higher court and as you yourself gave an example of self defense that took 18 years to decide.
Meanwhile there are many forms that need information if you have ever been arrested in a criminal case. You will have to answer 'Yes' as you are still on bail.
In other developed countries these things are handled quickly so it does not drag on for years.

Atul


Atul ji, I am also trying to say the same. That's why I advised not to use more than reasonable force. As in US and UK the "Castle Doctrine" is widely accepted. However in India if you have justifiable homicide also, you need to submit your weapon and wait for the verdict of the trial to be proved innocent and get your weapon back. Apart from this if you shot someone with good reasons too, the police officers will first try to confiscate the weapon and try to get your arms license cancelled arbitrarily. They don't even think that after such an incident, a person requires more safety as there may be increased threat from the accomplices of the deceased.

Regards
Ankur


A GOLF COURSE IS A WILLFUL AND DELIBERATE MISUSE OF AN EXCELLENT SHOOTING RANGE....


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