Safe Way to Carry a Hammerless Pistol

[sumit.technocrat]

No doubt that Glock and Springfield XD series pistols are considered to be the safest concealed carry pistols across the globe.

[timmy]

I am adding a response to this old thread because I am going to refer to it in a new thread, in which the same subject has come up again.

1. Carrying a semiautomatic pistol with the chamber empty, i.e., "Israeli carry": two considerations must be addressed here that are related. Firstly, the Israeli MOSSAD was/is? taught to carry small 22 Berettas this way. Note that this was for assassination purposes, not self defense. The carrier was attacking someone and knew when and how the attack would be made. Secondly, we are talking here of defensive carry, when a person is attacked, probably with little or no warning. There won't likely be an opportunity to rack the slide and chamber a round in such circumstances, as an attacker who chooses the time and place of an attack would do. The "Israeli carry" option, in other words, may be satisfactory for carrying in an attack mode, but not a defensive mode. Question: can one be sure that both of their hands will be free to rack the slide when an attack comes? This is the risk one must assume if the "Israeli carry" is used. For myself, assuming this risk is to great a burden to bear.

This reminds me of a story of my youth, when I worked in a section of town that was dangerous to be in at night time. Those of us who worked the evening shift, from 1600 to midnight, all carried. This was forbidden by our company's regulations, but the bosses all turned their heads because they knew it was dangerous to be outside at night time. This is when I began to carry an Astra 25 Automatic. One old guy carried a 6 inch barreled Smith & Wesson 38. This isnt the sort of gun one can carry concealed, so he carried it in his briefcase. Sure enough, the guy who mugged him in the parking lot after his shift did not give the courtesy of allowing my co worker to retrieve his large gun from his briefcase to defend himself. About a year later, this gun was recovered from a car involved in a grocery store robbery. Who knows how many other acts it had been involved in?

So, will the goon allow you time to rack your pistol's slide?

People often say that safety is the most important thing. I disagree. What is most important is to perform a task safely. When I used to fly a lot, the airline people would say that safety was their most important task. I always wanted to shout out that I could stay at home and be safer than getting into their flying cattle car. What is important is that they must fly me safely to my destination. I don't need to go to the airport to be safe.

Likewise, I want to carry my weapon safely to be ready to perform a task. If I want to just be safe, I can stay at home away from threats. Carrying with an empty chamber means that, in any set of possible situations, the gun that I'm carrying is useless if it is not prepared to do its job. In such cases, the gun is just as likely, if not moreso, to provide a goon with another weapon to use for their evil deeds as it is for me to use it to protect myself.

2. The Colt 1903 and 1908 "Hammerless" pocket pistols are not hammerless. They are not striker-fired. They have a hammer that is concealed under the back of the slide. They operate like any other hammer-fired pistol in that there is a special catch, called a sear, that engages a small flat surface on the hammer, holding it back until the sear is released, allowing the hammer to fall. Releasing the sear is usually accomplished by a push from the trigger mechanism.

Some may think that the 1903 and the 1908 Colt pistols are the same as the Browing Model 1922, which is what I believe the Ashani is based on. No, the Browning 1922 differs in a number of ways from the Colt pocket pistols. For one thing, the recoil spring, which is underneath the barrel on the Colt pistols, is around the barrel on the Browning, making the front of the pistol more slender and round.

But for our discussion here, the Browning 1922 is striker fired -- it doesn't have a hammer. but in the case of the Colts with the hammer and the Browning 1922, the safety operates on the sear of both designs, making the sear and the small surface of the hammer (or firing pin, in the case of the Browning 1922) it engages the sole thing that is keeping the firing pin from hitting the primer. The safety only serves to interact with the sear to prevent its movement. When a gun is dropped, the forces of inertia acting on it and its parts are great, and the sear engagement can be overpowered by these forces.

The 1911 LOOKS similar from the outside, but it IS NOT. The 1911's safety swings a solid piece of steel into the travel of the hammer, so that when the hammer is cocked and the safety is engaged, it is THE HAMMER that is blocked by large surfaces, not the sear.

Now, most pistols have a positive firing pin block, where a piece of steel engages a notch in the firing pin. This prevents the firing pin from hitting the primer even if the hammer falls on it or if the mechanism releases the sear. This firing pin block is usually actuated by pulling the trigger. Such firing pin blocks have been around for a long time. I'm not sure who was first to include it, but I know that my CZ52 and CZ70 pistols, designed in the early 50s, both have positive firing pin blocks.

The firing pin block is the only way one can be absolutely sure that the pistol is drop safe, aside from carrying it with an empty chamber, which we've discussed above.

An additional comment about revolvers: Do revolvers have the same problem? Yes, the early single actions like the famous Colt Single Action Army of "Old West" fame (not the one carried by Rajinikanth in Thai Meethu Sathiyam) were properly carrried with the hammer resting on an empty chamber. Double action revolvers began to use various designs that would "rebound" the hammer back from resting on a live cartridge. These designs were not, however, drop-proof. The first double action revolvers I know of that were positively safe were the Iver Johnson safety actions of around 1899. They used the now common transfer bar mechanism, where a bar was raised by pulling the trigger, allowing the hammer to strike it, which in turn, struck a firing pin. Colt introduced a modification of their actions in 1905 that blocked the hammer from striking the primer unless the trigger was pulled, lowering a blocking piece of steel that allowed the hammer to strike home. Smith & Wesson did not incorporate such a block in their revolvers until sometime during or after World War 2. I understand that there was one incident where a sailor during the War dropped his Smith & Wesson, which discharged, causing a fatality.

The bottom line here is that both pistols and revolvers must be carried safely, but some gun designs are not able to offer this without impairing the ability of the gun to always be ready to use, and still be carried safely.

[casual shooter]

I have an ATAl EDC, which is a striker-fired pistol. How safe is it to carry it chambered? I have been taught to never rely on the safety catch, although there are no pointed objects, etc., which can release the trigger, but still, should I or shouldn't I? That is the question; otherwise the pistol is wonderful and works like a well-oiled sewing machine.

[timmy]

I can't tell you whether the ATAI EDC is safe or not. The manufacturer says it is, but there's no information provided that I could find from a search. Even a parts diagram, which some manufacturers do provide, can give an idea of how the gun's mechanism works, but I could find nothing at all about the ATAI's parts inside. They simply make statements on their websites and that's it -- you have to trust them. This version 2 says that they added a 3rd safety, which is a button above the trigger. This looks to me like a trigger block and, if so, is more or less useless.

I can't understand why these makers don't give a buyer more information. YUou could take the pistol apart and see for yourself if you know what to look for.

Here's an interesting web page that describes the different kinds of safeties that you might find interesting:

https://www.usacarry.com/handgun-safeti ... teristics/

The fault that I find on this page is his description of "thumb safeties." There are many different kinds, and certainly the safety of a 1911 is totally different from the one on a Colt 1903 or 1908 by a mile. He doesn't explain this.

One good thing is his descrioption of the firing pin block. You can see it in his picture of the underside of the slide, a small round pin that is pushed up by trigger operation to allow the firing pin to pass.

But the long and short of the answer to your question is that I was unable to find out any information about your pistol that would provide an answer -- sorry.

[MeghP]

I have an ATAl EDC, which is a striker-fired pistol. How safe is it to carry it chambered? I have been taught to never rely on the safety catch, although there are no pointed objects, etc., which can release the trigger, but still, should I or shouldn't I? That is the question; otherwise the pistol is wonderful and works like a well-oiled sewing machine.

Interesting question, made me want to review the Astr Atal EDC Gen 2 specs again since it's one of the few striker fired pistols available in the market apart from the Werywin Victor and Glock models.

Looking at their marketing material, the safety features they have listed are -
1. Manual Safety
2. Trigger Safety
3. Drop Safety
4. Loaded Chamber Round Indicator

To have a closer look at the internals of their pistols I watched their own video of the Complete Maintenance and Disassembly Guide for Armorers



Based on the internals of the pistol when disassembled we can conclude the presence of these these safety features and how they work.

1. Manual Safety
Disassembly shown around the 12:24 mark. The black button/bar that moves from left to right acts as a trigger block as said by Timmy which stops the trigger shoe and or trigger bar from moving backwards and downward to release the striker which hits the primer of the round to fire. If this safety is engaged the pistol shouldn't fire even if you press the trigger and the trigger safety (The paddle in the middle of the trigger shoe).

2. Trigger Safety
This is the paddle in the middle of the trigger shoe which needs to be pressed in order to be able to pull the trigger backwards. When handling the pistol/holstering/deholstering this safety prevent accidental snags or pushes on the trigger from being able to fire the gun since the paddle would also have to be pressed in fully for the trigger shoe to travel backward. This is also present in Glocks and the Werywin Victor.

3. Drop Safety
Also present in Glocks and the Werywin Victor. Astr Defence's implementation of this feature is different from the other two manufacturers but looking at the video around 13:56 mark shows us the drop safety pin. This pin rides horizontally in the Fire Control Unit and goes through the trigger bar. The channel in the FCU that his pin rides in is narrow to the front and gets taller as you move to the rear. The trigger bar needs to move backwards to pull the striker back and then downwards to release the striker. The shape of the drop safety pin channel keeps the trigger bar from moving downwards when it's in the forward position ensuring the trigger bar cannot release the striker in case the pistol is dropped. Prevents an accidental discharge.

20250615_210714.jpg

4. Loaded Chamber Round Indicator
Is the protrusion of the extractor that shows that there is a round in the chamber. Self explanatory, allows you to check if there's a round in the chamber without racking the slide.

That's an explanation of the safety features Astr Defence has advertised and how they work.

One feature I believe is missing and should've been present is a firing pin block. It is a mechanism which stops the firing pin from traveling forward unless the trigger is depressed. It's present in the Glock, Werywin Victor. Why do i believe it's important? If you talk about incidents where a pistol is dropped on its barrel causing an accidental discharge, it happens when the firing pin has enough inertia to keep moving when the pistol as a whole comes to a rest and hits the primer. This is a common occurrence in 1911 Pistols (Series 70) which despite the Thumb Safety and Grips Safety working as they should can't prevent the chance of an accident discharge if a pistol falls down at the right angle onto the front of the barrel. This was later added to the Series 80 1911 design.

That would have made the Astr Atal 100% safe in all circumstances as long as the engineering and manufacturing of every feature is precise and well tested (I'm talking about the Sig P320 going off on its own despite all its safety features)

I believe chamber carry can be a controversial topic and I prefer leave it up to individual preference based on confidence in carry, threat perception and trust in the weapon manufacture. You can form your opinion based on the safety features we've talked about above. Personally I would not consider chamber carry based on how I perceive threats and my decision to carry a 1911, models of which sold in India do not have a firing pin block.

[timmy]

MeghP, thank you so much for posting this!!! It is a real aid in understanding how the ATAL pistol works. I had to check twice with their corporate site to see which version they were describing -- one of the 32 Auto models or the 9mm model, as the barrel lug wasn't shown as clearly as it could have been. This video shows how they could use essentially the same pistol for either 9mm or 32 Auto (or 380 Auto, if they wished).

I' combine my comments to the video and to your observations below:

1. WD40: never use it. I worked with a fellow in a Biotech lab who had served in Afghanistan and Iraq (2nd invasion after 9-11). There was an incident in the Iraq invasion where a group of National Guard soldiers were ambushed and captured by Iraqi forces, and a part of that encounter included much jamming of the Americans' M4 rifles.

My friend explained this: like many other things, the proper lubricants for the M4s was in short supply and the battlefield preparation of this National Guard unit was sloppy. (They were not front line combat troops, only a transportation unit.) They had cleaned and lubricated their M4 rifles with WD40 for these reasons.

WD40 contains hexane (a water displacement chemical, thus the "WD" in the name) and also what some call "fish oil." The result, my military lab partner said, was to attract every bit of dust for kilometers around. Bad move: it caused the guns to jam.

I would never use WD40 on any moving part for any reason. There are much better lubricants and many solvents for cleaning available. I have yet to try Ballistol, but am eager to do so, for instance. Now, I use Hoppes #9 for cleaning and a touch of automatic transmission fluid for a lubricant (it works on my Lionel trains, too!), or some Army issue bore cleaner that seems to contain some kerosene. But, no WD40 for me, even if it is the manufacturer who recommends it, thank you.

2. The manual safety: A trigger block, as you said. This is about as useful as the so-called safety on an IOF revolver. To scrub clean a saying that is used by old timers in Texas, such safeties are as useful as mammary glands on a male pig. I assume that ATAL included this as either an advertising feature or to make uneducated folks gain a false sense of security.

Now, a two part response:

One feature I believe is missing and should've been present is a firing pin block. It is a mechanism which stops the firing pin from traveling forward unless the trigger is depressed. It's present in the Glock, Werywin Victor. Why do i believe it's important? If you talk about incidents where a pistol is dropped on its barrel causing an accidental discharge, it happens when the firing pin has enough inertia to keep moving when the pistol as a whole comes to a rest and hits the primer. This is a common occurrence in 1911 Pistols (Series 70) which despite the Thumb Safety and Grips Safety working as they should can't prevent the chance of an accident discharge if a pistol falls down at the right angle onto the front of the barrel. This was later added to the Series 80 1911 design.

That would have made the Astr Atal 100% safe in all circumstances as long as the engineering and manufacturing of every feature is precise and well tested (I'm talking about the Sig P320 going off on its own despite all its safety features)

3a. Yes, yes, yes, and a thousand times, yes!!!

One of the most famous rifle designs of all time is the Model 98 Mauser. (The earlier models are similar in this.) As with most bolt action rifles, it is striker-fired. Note how the flag safety lever locks the firing pin to the bolt. I cannot conceive a way anyone could attack the gun with any tool and cause this safety to fail. The gun would be destroyed from firing at all before the safety was compromised. That makes this safety 100% reliable, as reliable as human design can make it. There is a reason why the military wanted it this way.

So, the ATAL still relies on the purchase the sear has on the firing pin "step," as the video calls it. Here is a compromise: to make the gun safer, this "step" must be as large as possible. But, to have a nice, crisp trigger pull, the "step must be as small as possible. OF course, not only is strength sacrificed by a small step, but the angle of the "step" becomes more critical to having the sear slip from its purchase.

I conclude very quickly that your observation is correct: a true drop safety is only obtained with a reliable firing pin block, period.

However, the feature that ATAL calls a "drop safety" is welcome and could mitigate some of the risk.

3b. Now, the discussion of the 1911 (other than the Series 80 with the firing pin block).

First, let me quote what Massad Ayoob says in an article I posted. Ayoob has been carrying a 1911 since he was 12 years old in his father's jewelry store. He's older than me (about the age of dirt, I guess) and has been a long term policeman, court expert witness, and handgun competition winner. I won't say that he knows it all, but he knows a whole lot more about the 1911 than I do.

Is the 1911 “drop safe”? While it has been proven that the original 100-year-old design can discharge from firing pin inertia if dropped on either end, particularly if thousands of trigger pulls have weakened the firing pin spring, this has been corrected on modern designs.

A lightweight firing pin, and/or heavier firing pin spring, make the 1911 inherently drop safe. This is the approach Springfield Armory has taken successfully to its broad line of 1911 pistols. Adding a mechanical firing pin block safety can also work, and some other 1911 manufacturers have taken this approach. However, some complain that this system can affect the 1911’s enviably crisp and clean trigger pull.

So now, like the ATAL "drop safe" provision, we aren't talking about 100% drop safe -- impossible to happen -- but we are saying that given the weight of the firing pin or the strength of the firing pin spring, there is a large degree of mitigation of the problem.

I carry my 1911 Series 70 in this:



This is a Galco Fletch holster. It is in very good shape and has a thumb break that securely holds the gun in the holster. It's very unlikely that it can fall out of the holster.

However, if I set it on the shooting bench at the gun range, it can be knocked off and fall on the concrete pad below. Or, if I were to carry it in public, an incident could occur where the police shouted at me, "drop your weapon." When a bunch of cops have their guns trained on me and they are ready to fire, there's not a lot room for negotiating, is there? I've got to drop the gun, and then what happens?

I have not carried my 1911 for decades, so the police issue isn't likely, and the range issue, like any other, I address with a good holster and good attention to safety. But, again, as you and Massad Ayoob note, this is not 100% assurance. It's a risk I assume by choice, feeling that the probabilities involved make my choice not foolish.

The same can be said for the ATAI. There is still risk with the "drop safe" mechanism, but it is less than if there were no drop safe mechanism. How much is the risk decreased? This partly depends on the safety measures one takes while carrying it, like choice of holster and being careful 100% of the time. Who assumes the risk? The carrier. Who is under risk? The carrier of the ATAI (or the 1911) and all of those around the carrier. As I said in a different thread, someone could be sitting on the toilet next to me in the restroom, and if my gun drops out of the holster and goes off, I am responsible morally and legally for what happens to that poor soul who had no choice in choosing their level of risk. They just needed to relieve themselves.

As we might note, this is an awesome responsibility we choose.

4. Finally, I'm considering your final statement:

I believe chamber carry can be a controversial topic and I prefer leave it up to individual preference based on confidence in carry, threat perception and trust in the weapon manufacture. You can form your opinion based on the safety features we've talked about above. Personally I would not consider chamber carry based on how I perceive threats and my decision to carry a 1911, models of which sold in India do not have a firing pin block.

Well, yes, I agree with you here partially. Firstly, I would point out that we have no choice in how someone else carries, and only some choice in how we carry. Therefore, like you, I only post my observations, opinions, and examples to inform others of what I've found. Everyone will do what they want, whether it is based on facts and data, or feelings, or a combination of all of these factors.

Here's my list of guns I've carried:

A Ruger in 45 Colt in a shoulder holster. (up til about 1984)
A 1911 (up til about 1985)
A Colt Detective Special in an inside the waistband holster (up til about 1999)
A Chinese "Star" (Tokarev design) in 9mm (up to about 2000)
A CZ70 in an inside the waistband holster (up to 2024)
and finally, currently, a Canik TP9 SA Mod 2 in an inside the waistband holster

All of these I've carried loaded and in the case of semiautos, with a round in the chamber EXCEPT the Star. (I always load all chambers of revolvers, as this is safe with the guns I own.) These guns are DEADLY to carry with a round in the chamber under any and all conditions! That's why I quit. I studied guns and considered that the Star was almost as thin and compact as a Colt Pocket 1903 or 1908 pistol, and had the additional power of 9mm. But after buying the gun and fooling around with it, I soon discovered it wasn't safe at all. That's why I would never recommend the MSD Falcon as a carry gun to anyone (although for other uses, someone may well have good use for one). There is a reason the Soviet Union stepped away from the Tokarev design and went with essentially a Walther PP design -- the Makarov --, and I understand one of the chief ones was the number of negligent discharges during WW2.

Part of my choices for carry has to do with how much the gun I'm carrying costs. If my 1911 was confiscated in some situation, I could no longer afford a new one. This would also apply to the Colt Detective Special. So, I've concentrated on guns that, if lost, would not be the end of the world for me, but would still be able to accomplish my intended purpose.

I do intend to acquire another carry gun in the future, but I'll hold back on that until I have it. Meanwhile, the Canik has pleased me greatly.

Finally, I don't choose to carry semiautos with an empty chamber. I don't know what threat may manifest itself, and I hope I'm never in a position where I may have to use a firearm. I've come close a couple of times, but the problem was avoided. Those experiences and some others have guided me in the decision to carry with a loaded chamber, and to live in a place where I could carry. (I am thankful to have that choice now.) I put aside carrying the Star for these reasons, and the others were impractical or due to unwillingness to lose one. All are still enjoyed at the range, however. (Except the Star -- it is an uncomfortable gun to shoot. But not so much as would cause me to get rid of it.)

Thanks for your contributions and viewpoints!!!